Hell

[PATrobas]

Reminders Definitions - HELL

            The familiar definition of Hell being all fire and brimstone is derived from a composite of Hebrew and Greek words and their meanings. But combining these different definitions into one common word has caused confusion and misunderstanding about the afterlife. Being defined as a place where sinners will go after their death to spend eternity in unquenchable fiery torment, outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and their worm dies not, is correct, but it is a description of a future, not a present place for the unsaved. To understand the Biblical use (or misuse) of the word ‘Hell,’ we must again go to the original languages of Hebrew and Greek from which the English word Hell is taken.

            The OT Hebrew word for the underground world of the dead is ‘Sheol,’ which is also translated as ‘grave,’ or ‘pit.’ The bodies of the dead were put in a tomb, but their souls and spirits went to a holding place until the resurrection of their bodies to either Heaven or the Lake of Fire. The corresponding Greek word in the NT is ‘Hades.’ Here is where confusion comes because of man’s intermingling of translations and misunderstanding of terms. Until Christ’s resurrection from the dead, all people, believers and unbelievers, Jews and Gentiles alike went to a subterranean holding place called Hades. This place was divided into two sections, separated by a great gulf, which the souls on either side could not cross to the other. The side where those who had trusted God by faith was called Paradise, a pleasant place of comfort. The other side held them who did not believe and was known only as Hades, an unpleasant place of thirst, heat, and torment of flame. Jesus described this place in the account of Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. Paradise is where Jesus’ soul went during the three days His body laid in the tomb (His spirit having gone to his Father during that time. ^{Luke 23:46}) We have no record of what He did there, but there is zero Biblical evidence that He went there to preach the Gospel or to give a second chance to them that had rejected Him before their death. ^{Hebrews 9:27} After His resurrection the unbelievers remained in Hades awaiting final judgement, but the believers were raised with new bodies, and both the people, and the place of Paradise were relocated to the third Heaven. Both Paul and John went there and then came back to tell us about it. ^{2 Corinthians 12:1-4; Revelation, 1-22} Finally, the word Hell is also translated from another Greek word, Gehenna, which was a deep ravine outside of Jerusalem where garbage, dead animals and criminals were dumped to be consumed by a continually burning fire. This valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna represents the Lake of Fire judgement at the Great White Throne of Revelation 20:11-15, where whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life will spend eternity.

            Final Thoughts: Everyone’s bodies will be consumed and return to the dust of the earth, ^{Ecclesiastes 3:20} but not so our souls and spirits. After the body dies, the souls and spirits of those who have not trusted in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for eternal life will consciously wait in Hades until they are judged at the Great White Throne. Today, all believers go directly into the presence of Jesus as Paul taught us, “to be absent from the body, [is] to be present with the Lord.” ^{2 Corinthians 5:1-8} And just as Jesus said to the believing thief on the cross, “this day thou shalt be with me in Paradise,” ^{Luke 23:43} so shall we who are born again, likewise go to be with Him in Paradise.     _ph

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, PATrobas said:

Reminders Definitions - HELL

            The familiar definition of Hell being all fire and brimstone is derived from a composite of Hebrew and Greek words and their meanings. But combining these different definitions into one common word has caused confusion and misunderstanding about the afterlife. Being defined as a place where sinners will go after their death to spend eternity in unquenchable fiery torment, outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth, and their worm dies not, is correct, but it is a description of a future, not a present place for the unsaved. To understand the Biblical use (or misuse) of the word ‘Hell,’ we must again go to the original languages of Hebrew and Greek from which the English word Hell is taken.

            The OT Hebrew word for the underground world of the dead is ‘Sheol,’ which is also translated as ‘grave,’ or ‘pit.’ The bodies of the dead were put in a tomb, but their souls and spirits went to a holding place until the resurrection of their bodies to either Heaven or the Lake of Fire. The corresponding Greek word in the NT is ‘Hades.’ Here is where confusion comes because of man’s intermingling of translations and misunderstanding of terms. Until Christ’s resurrection from the dead, all people, believers and unbelievers, Jews and Gentiles alike went to a subterranean holding place called Hades. This place was divided into two sections, separated by a great gulf, which the souls on either side could not cross to the other. The side where those who had trusted God by faith was called Paradise, a pleasant place of comfort. The other side held them who did not believe and was known only as Hades, an unpleasant place of thirst, heat, and torment of flame. Jesus described this place in the account of Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. Paradise is where Jesus’ soul went during the three days His body laid in the tomb (His spirit having gone to his Father during that time. ^{Luke 23:46}) We have no record of what He did there, but there is zero Biblical evidence that He went there to preach the Gospel or to give a second chance to them that had rejected Him before their death. ^{Hebrews 9:27} After His resurrection the unbelievers remained in Hades awaiting final judgement, but the believers were raised with new bodies, and both the people, and the place of Paradise were relocated to the third Heaven. Both Paul and John went there and then came back to tell us about it. ^{2 Corinthians 12:1-4; Revelation, 1-22} Finally, the word Hell is also translated from another Greek word, Gehenna, which was a deep ravine outside of Jerusalem where garbage, dead animals and criminals were dumped to be consumed by a continually burning fire. This valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna represents the Lake of Fire judgement at the Great White Throne of Revelation 20:11-15, where whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life will spend eternity.

            Final Thoughts: Everyone’s bodies will be consumed and return to the dust of the earth, ^{Ecclesiastes 3:20} but not so our souls and spirits. After the body dies, the souls and spirits of those who have not trusted in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for eternal life will consciously wait in Hades until they are judged at the Great White Throne. Today, all believers go directly into the presence of Jesus as Paul taught us, “to be absent from the body, [is] to be present with the Lord.” ^{2 Corinthians 5:1-8} And just as Jesus said to the believing thief on the cross, “this day thou shalt be with me in Paradise,” ^{Luke 23:43} so shall we who are born again, likewise go to be with Him in Paradise.     _ph

 

 

 

Here is my understanding of the matter;
1. The word hell does not appear in the Bible. But is used to translate three different illustrations:
(i) Gehenna - the valley on the south side of Jerusalem where the city rubbish and animal cadavers are burnt by continuous fire
(11) Hades - the PLACE that the souls of dead men go to wait for resurrection
(iii) Tartaroo (2 Pet.2:4) - the PLACE of the angels who mixed with women are sent - a prison

(i) At death a man, tripartite in construction, is torn apart. His body decays on the surface of the earth, his spirit returns to God Who grace it (Eccl.3:21, 12:7), and his soul descends to Hades. At resurrection the body is mad new out of the earth again, his spirit returns (Lk.8:55) and the soul RISES to join the new body

(ii) All men die, except those who are Believers and alive at Christ's return, and ALL men are RAISED. There is no record of a disembodied man being judged, so, like the Beast and the False Prophet, men are judged AFTER resurrection. Hades is a PLACE a dead man's soul goes to after death. Gehenna is a STATE of intense suffering brought on by God Himself (Matt.10:28). The Greek equivalent is "PERDITION" which does not mean annihilation, but exquisite lack of well-being" (Vine). Gehenna is used interchangeably with "The Lake of Fire" and is described in Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:43.47. The "fire" and the "worm" are personal and internal. It is "THEIR worm and THEIR Fire. This also shows God's justice as each person receives "THEIR" fire and worm.

In the narrative of Lazarus and the rich man it is to be noted that the rich man suffered, but SO ALSO Lazarus. The difference was that Lazarus was "comforted". The reason for this is found in 2nd Corinthians 5:1-5. A death we put off our earthly "tents" (bodies) and are NAKED until resurrection. Nakedness is an abnormal condition. There is another reason the can cause suffering. If yo were a martyr you have to wait until the age changes to get vengeance. Until the rapture it is still the age of grace.

Gehenna was made for Satan and his angels. But men are first into it - the Beast and his False Prophet plus the "goats" of Matthew 25. Gehenna is a place of suffering inflicted by God after judgement.
1. Christ was judged first on resurrection day as he presented His blood in the heavenly Tabernacle (Jn.21:17, Heb.9:12-14). He is awarded fame for His name and inherits heaven and earth (the whole created adornment)
2. We Christians are judged at a special throne that indicates Christ is on the move - a Bema (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). At this assize we will be judged for our WORKS after conversion. WE cannot go to the Lake of Fire because of Christ's work, but we can be cast out of the Kingdom, be chastised with stripes and/or be cast from the presence of Christ for the first 1,000 years. Remember, Christ promised that He would be with us till the "end of the AGE (not world)", and we can be "hurt of the Second Death (Rev.
3. Israel is judged just after the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2). Israel are restored to their Land  but many will experience the Second Death (Dan,12:2)
4. The "rest of the dead" are resurrected a thousand years. Christ must fight Armageddon and the Magog rebellion at the end of the 1,000 year reign - both of which will fill Hades with dead men's souls. After Harmon-Gog Christ raises ALL the remaining dead and Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev.20). The "rest of the dead"  are raised and thus death is defeated. The rest of the dead are judged by their WORKS (Isa..66, Rev.20).

The Hebrew word for Hades is "Sheol" but because the dispensation of Law brought instant rewards, the Old Testament is written about the earth and earthly calling and earthly reward. So Sheol can also mean the "grave"

One last thing. The malefactor crucified with Christ first joined the other in mocking Christ. Then, probably when the  earth went dark, he changed his mind. His call to Jesus was that Jesus was innocent and asked to be remembered when Christ took His KINGDOM. The context was the superscription that Pilate had ordered on the cross of Jesus saying that Jesus was "King of the Jews". It was not about the Kingdom of Heaven. And our Lord Jesus answered NOT A WORD about the kingdom. He answered about the PLACE "Paradise" where Jesus would be "THAT DAY". According to John 21:17, Matthew 12:40, Acts 2;26-34 and Ephesians 4:7-10, Paradise is UNDER THE EARTH. There is no scripture saying that Paradise has moved. In 2nd Corinthians 12 when Paul was "caught UP to Paradise" the translators took unwarranted liberty. The Greek word "Harpazo" indicates movement BUT NOT DIRECTION. "Harpazo should be translated " caught AWAY" as it is in Acts 8:39.

Summary:
1. the dead go to Hades
2. hell does not appear in the Bible. It is a Roman Catholic invention
3, the STATE of nakedness at death is solved only by getting a new body made of dust but made in heaven
4. Gehenna is a STATE of suffering, not a PLACE
5. Hades is for SOULS of men, Tartaro is for "spirits" -angels
6. the dead ALWAYS "RISE"
7. death is only conquered when the last dead man is alive again
8. Jesus must reign on earth till death is conquered
9. There is no scripture that plainly and categorically states that dead men go to heaven
10. dead men are both naked and unclean
11. In every case of resurrection, the person resurreceted received his/her body again
9

[PATrobas]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

In the narrative of Lazarus and the rich man it is to be noted that the rich man suffered, but SO ALSO Lazarus.

Paradise appears to me to be a place of comfort. I see nowhere that Lazarus suffered there. Luke 16:25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The reason for this is found in 2nd Corinthians 5:1-5. A death we put off our earthly "tents" (bodies) and are NAKED until resurrection.

Those verses seem to mean (to me) that when we (our soul and spirit) go to the Lord at the death of our bodies, we receive some sort of "housing" (building) from God. At least that's how I read them.

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.:2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven::3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The malefactor crucified with Christ first joined the other in mocking Christ. Then, probably when the  earth went dark, he changed his mind.

I see no Biblical evidence of this.

Luk 23:39  And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.:40  But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?:41  And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.:42  And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

We aren't talking about Jesus and His kingdom but rather where the dead went. Both the thief and Jesus both went to the Paradise side of Hades that day.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

There is no scripture saying that Paradise has moved. In 2nd Corinthians 12 when Paul was "caught UP to Paradise" the translators took unwarranted liberty. The Greek word "Harpazo" indicates movement BUT NOT DIRECTION. "Harpazo should be translated " caught AWAY" as it is in Acts 8:39.

Where then is the third heaven (and thus Paradise) if not "UP" in Heaven? 2Co 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;):4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

3, the STATE of nakedness at death is solved only by getting a new body made of dust but made in heaven

Scripture please.

 

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

7. death is only conquered when the last dead man is alive again

Are you saying that all (believers and unbelievers alike) will be raised to the same place?

All men have immortal souls and will be raised with immortal bodies to live forever but  believers will be with the Lord, unbelievers in the Lake of Fire.

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

. There is no scripture that plainly and categorically states that dead men go to heaven

As stated before and in 2 Cor. 5 to be absent from the body is to be present WITH THE LORD. IF NOT HEAVEN, THEN WHERE?

 

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

10. dead men are both naked and unclean

Scripture please.

But thanks for the synopsis. I mostly agree except for above. I was mostly just trying to give young believers some clarity about (as you pointed out) the misuse/misunderstanding of the word Hell. Blessings.

[AdHoc]

19 hours ago, PATrobas said:

Paradise appears to me to be a place of comfort. I see nowhere that Lazarus suffered there. Luke 16:25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Those verses seem to mean (to me) that when we (our soul and spirit) go to the Lord at the death of our bodies, we receive some sort of "housing" (building) from God. At least that's how I read them.

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.:2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven::3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

I see no Biblical evidence of this.

Luk 23:39  And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.:40  But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?:41  And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.:42  And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

We aren't talking about Jesus and His kingdom but rather where the dead went. Both the thief and Jesus both went to the Paradise side of Hades that day.

Where then is the third heaven (and thus Paradise) if not "UP" in Heaven? 2Co 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;):4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Scripture please.

 

Are you saying that all (believers and unbelievers alike) will be raised to the same place?

All men have immortal souls and will be raised with immortal bodies to live forever but  believers will be with the Lord, unbelievers in the Lake of Fire.

As stated before and in 2 Cor. 5 to be absent from the body is to be present WITH THE LORD. IF NOT HEAVEN, THEN WHERE?

 

Scripture please.

But thanks for the synopsis. I mostly agree except for above. I was mostly just trying to give young believers some clarity about (as you pointed out) the misuse/misunderstanding of the word Hell. Blessings.

As always, polite but direct. I appreciate your Christian approach. Considering the bombardment we receive of Roman doctine, all are valid questions. Perhaps the first clue that all is not well with contemporary Christian doctrine is that where I said "there is no scriptural evidence" you needed only to post scripture. In some cases you did, and these I will answer.

Lazarus;
The question that begs answering is "Why is a paradise needed? And why is comfort needed? Lazarus was ill and hungry. This brought misery whilst alive. But now Lazarus has put off his earthly tabernacle - the source of his misery. Why does he need comfort?" 2nd Corinthians 5 tells us in verse 2 that we "groan". The reason? We are naked! Then Paul proposes getting back into our bodies, but this issues in "groaning" too. Why? because our present body is mortal, subject to illness, sin and demon activity. Now consider this. If we received a resurrection body immediately it would be utter foolishness to write 2nd Corinthians 5:1-5. We would not "groan". This means that we groan from birth in our "vile" body  during life. We are subject to the PAIN of death. And then, after death, we groan and must be comforted.

Paradise:
I present you with a question. If we are with the Lord in death and Psalm 16:11 says "at thy right hand are pleasures forever more", what is the purpose of Paradise? Well, 2nd Corinthians 5 tells why. Because death makes us "groan" But even more telling is that death is God's last enemy to be conquered. Never mind or plight in death! What about God's reputation that He is ALL-mighty. Is it so that there is an enemy He can't overcome? And then comes the devastating question; was Christ lying when He said "ALL in the graves who be raised"? Perish the thought!!! EVERY MAN must be resurrected - and this in not only said in 1st Corinthians 15:22, but becomes a fact in Revelation 20. Hades gives up her dead! They all STAND!

But let us examine 2nd Corinthians 12

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The first thing of note is that if this was one journey, then it is described in the most cumbersome of terms. Why go through the whole explanation of a man in Christ twice. And why use the word "visions" (plural) and "revelations" (plural) in verse 1, when he only had one. And why does he join the trip to the third heaven to that to Paradise with the word "AND". "And" is a CONJUNCTION. It joins two or more things together. And why, if Jesus "descended FIRST" and spent three days "in the heart of the earth" and the told Mary that he had "not yet ascended to the Father" ... why would the translators render "harpazo" as CAUGHT UP ad not CAUGHT DOWN? Paradise is obviously under the earth. After all, in every case the dead are "RAISED" - an upward motion. Less powerful as an argument, but nevertheless telling, is Paul's inspired statement that while he may talk at length of heaven, he is forbidden to speak of paradise. The Bible is full of new of heaven, but Moses had the death penalty for necromansers.

Is not the weight of evidence on the side of paradise being under the earth? And if so, where is ONE verse that says that this has changed? If there is such a verse, what shall we say to Acts 2:25-34 where we learn from Luke that David is still in the grave AND he (his SOUL) is still in Hades??? And this, 10 days after our Lord's rapture and 50 days after His resurrection!

This brings me to a verse that this whole matter is bult on - Ephesians 4:8

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Neither the context, nor the wording remotely indicate Christ removing Paradise to heaven. If death was captivity, why all are still dead. Captivity is not dissolved. It just has a new jailer. The grammar must mean something else.

Enough! The posting gets too long. Let's work with these few points

[AdHoc]

On 1/4/2025 at 2:13 AM, PATrobas said:

On 1/3/2025 at 11:31 PM, AdHoc said:

The malefactor crucified with Christ first joined the other in mocking Christ. Then, probably when the  earth went dark, he changed his mind.

I see no Biblical evidence of this.

44  The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth (Mat.27:44).

[PATrobas]

Good catch! I forgot to read Matt. too. I was wrong about that one. Thanks for the verse.

[AdHoc]

1 minute ago, PATrobas said:

Good catch! I forgot to read Matt. too. I was wrong about that one. Thanks for the verse.

Unbending honesty .... a great treasure in God's sight.

[Who me]

Hell is an eternity of separation  from God and from all the blessings of his presence. 

 Heaven is an eternity with God with his blessings and without any of the problems, pains caused by sin.

Gal5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

none of these will be found in hell. 

 

[enoob57]

Separated from God and all God 'IS'... no one can fathom this except take every need we were created with and have that need remain yet with no supply or fulfillment of! I can fathom this... and think of the continual increase and intensity of this reality without end...

[Tristen]

3 hours ago, Who me said:

Hell is an eternity of separation  from God and from all the blessings of his presence. 

 Heaven is an eternity with God with his blessings and without any of the problems, pains caused by sin.

Gal5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

none of these will be found in hell. 

 

Agreed.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

Also,

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Therefore, "hell" is the "everlasting" experience of utter separation from everything that is "good" and "perfect". No love, no joy, no rest, no comfort - and worst of all, no hope.