" Replacement Theology"

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to any and all who are following along:

This chart is what I believe about the Coming Kingdom. The ones in Green are those who will be immediately within the Kingdom when the King returns. The black hoizontal line divides between the children of Israel (the bottom half) and those who are referred to as Gentiles (the top half). The Greek sections are those who will IMMEDIATELY be counted as subjects for God's Kingdom. Notice that the black, horizontal line is discontinued in the green sections. The diagonal red line separates between those who will immediately be His subjects in His Kingdom, when the Messiah returns.

Notice that there are SIX sections in this chart. Those who consider themselves Christians and those who are Messianic Jews shall immediately be a part of that Kingdom, And, the words of Paul in Ephesians 2 replace the horizontal line: "He ... hath broken down the middle wall of partition beween them." 

Second, there is a group of unbelieving Jews (children of Israel) who will be that "nation born in a day." They are NOT considered part of His Kingdom ... YET! But, almost immediately, they WILL BECOME part of His Kingdom.

Third, there's a group of Gentiles who are at first non-believing Gentiles; however, they are a group of Gentile nations called "the sheep nations" in Matthew 25:31ff who treated the children of Israel with respect and treated them well. These shall be vassal states under the Kingdom, but will become those who are a part of His Kingdom soon enough, as the Messiah's empire grows.

The Fourth group, the children of Israel who REFUSE to accept Yeeshuwa` as their King, and do not survive the coming persecutions will be in the same category as
"בְּנֵי בְלִיָּעַל" = "bneey bliyyaa`al " = "sons of Belial" or "children of worthlessness." (More to say about this group later.)

The final group, are the Gentile "goat nations" who abused and mistreated the children of Israel under their care. They will be rewarded harshly for their mistreatment of them. Not thrown into the Lake of Fire, just yet, but if they continue to reject the King, they will suffer the same fate as others who will be resurrected to be judged and sentenced to the Lake of Fire, "prepared for the devil and his messengers."

The red line is seen here in this chart, but by the end of the 1,000 years, ALL the nations of the world will be subdued, some by their own choice and others forcibly.

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Luther said:

You said:

"Why do we think we're all who'll be at the Marriage Feast to dine?

Get rid of that old foolish pride! We're graffed in, I say!
This high-and-mighty attitude will come to humbler day!
It should be crushing blow to think....."Listen. Your poem is well written and I sincerely appreciate you sharing it with me. I just want to keep my focus on Christ alone when it comes to my salvation. His grace is sufficient. 

Amen! (Hebrew for "Truth!") At least, you've been exposed to my point of view. What you do with it is TOTALLY between you and God. I appreciate and respect your point of view on this.

10 hours ago, Luther said:

On this comment about Martin Luther:

".....to his later years, when embittered by his failure to convert them to Christianity, he became outspokenly antisemitic in his statements and writings."

I know a bit about Martin Luther. This is a very distorted statement. Let me say this as simply as possible. He no longer spent his time trying to convert jews  to Christianity once he got hold of a copy  of their book the talmud. He wasn't embittered by any failure on his part. He is  one of the most important figures in the history of the church. 

I agree that Martin Luther was an important component to the development of Christianity in his time. It still bothers me that "he no longer spent his time trying to convert Jews."

Paul said, "23 And they (the children of Israel, especially the Jews) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.' 28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] BELOVED for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. (I.e., God DOESN'T CHANGE HIS MIND about His gifts and calling!) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through YOUR mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL." (Romans 11:23-32 KJV).

It's our DUTY to continue to share with the Jews about their Messiah, for His name means "He shall save" His people from their sins! (Matt. 1:21). Paul felt it was HIS duty; are we greater than Paul?

Furthermore, Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") said to the Jews,"Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'" (Matthew 23:39)

How can they do that if (1) they don't know that He was (and will be) their Messiah, the "One who comes in the authority of YHWH," and (2) that they must say this in their prayers to God?! We also need to understand that Yeeshuwa` was telling them that He wouldn't RETURN UNTIL they could say that! And, if you read Psalm 118:26 from which this quote in highlighted blue comes, they must do so from the "house of the LORD" - the TEMPLE, implying that a new Temple must be built first!

[Luther]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Amen! (Hebrew for "Truth!") At least, you've been exposed to my point of view. What you do with it is TOTALLY between you and God. I appreciate and respect your point of view on this.

I agree that Martin Luther was an important component to the development of Christianity in his time. It still bothers me that "he no longer spent his time trying to convert Jews."

Paul said, "23 And they (the children of Israel, especially the Jews) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.' 28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] BELOVED for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. (I.e., God DOESN'T CHANGE HIS MIND about His gifts and calling!) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through YOUR mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL." (Romans 11:23-32 KJV).

It's our DUTY to continue to share with the Jews about their Messiah, for His name means "He shall save" His people from their sins! (Matt. 1:21). Paul felt it was HIS duty; are we greater than Paul?

Furthermore, Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") said to the Jews,"Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'" (Matthew 23:39)

How can they do that if (1) they don't know that He was (and will be) their Messiah, the "One who comes in the authority of YHWH," and (2) that they must say this in their prayers to God?! We also need to understand that Yeeshuwa` was telling them that He wouldn't RETURN UNTIL they could say that! And, if you read Psalm 118:26 from which this quote in highlighted blue comes, they must do so from the "house of the LORD" - the TEMPLE, implying that a new Temple must be built first!

You said:"the "house of the LORD" - the TEMPLE, implying that a new Temple must be built first!"

I don't know if you'll agree but when the temple curtain was torn in two, it signified the end of continual sacrifices for sin ( thank you Jesus) and the temple becomes the body of Christ:

1 Corinthians 3:16

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

In light of Christ fulfilling the old Covenant I'm amazed, actually, that Christians feel the necessity to bring it back . A major shift occurred on that day of the crucifixion. 

Martin Luther in his last days was warning the world of talmudism, which was a continuation of " phariseeism". We read that Jesus Christ condemned and rebuked the Pharisees for their perversion of the scriptures. In a sense you could say that Martin Luther had that same understanding at that point in his life. I don't know how else to say it. 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Luther said:

You said:"the "house of the LORD" - the TEMPLE, implying that a new Temple must be built first!"

I don't know if you'll agree but when the temple curtain was torn in two, it signified the end of continual sacrifices for sin ( thank you Jesus) and the temple becomes the body of Christ:

1 Corinthians 3:16

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Shalom, @Luther.

Oh, yes, I agree with you. However, one must understand that prophecies just tell the truth of what will happen, whether the activity is sanctioned by God or not. 

Look, the Jews have the Temple furniture, the priests' clothes, the red heifers, the walls for the Temple, and all the plans ready to go! All they have to do is allow the building to begin!

Whether they are "right or wrong" in building the Temple and beginning the Temple worship again is irrelevant; the prophecy SHALL be fulfilled, and when it is, we're one step closer to the Return of the Messiah!

1 hour ago, Luther said:

In light of Christ fulfilling the old Covenant I'm amazed, actually, that Christians feel the necessity to bring it back . A major shift occurred on that day of the crucifixion. 

It's not just the "Old Covenant" pitted against the "New Covenant." That dichotomy shows a LIMITED view of history! More important, from the perspective of the Messiah's future Kingdom is the DAVIDIC Covenant! THAT'S the covenant that counts! The New Covenant, as originally prophesied, is for the nation of Israel, as the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel when the prophecies were first written! They are in anticipation of the REUNIFICATION of Israel under the Messiah's rule!

1 hour ago, Luther said:

Martin Luther in his last days was warning the world of talmudism, which was a continuation of " phariseeism". We read that Jesus Christ condemned and rebuked the Pharisees for their perversion of the scriptures. In a sense you could say that Martin Luther had that same understanding at that point in his life. I don't know how else to say it. 

The P'rushiym ("Pharisees") were not a bad lot. For most of that time period, they were the HEROES of the Jews! The word means "Separatists," and they believed in "separating themselves" from the evils and corruption in the world at that time. Remember: Paul was a "Pharisee of the Pharisees!"

HOWEVER, there are always a few bad apples who give the "black eye" to the rest. Such was the case in power at the time that the Messiah came. The Talmud was originally the "oral Torah" as opposed to the "written Torah." The written Torah was the first five books of the Bible, but the Talmud was the applications of that written Torah in many different instances that occurred in life. Some of it was good; however, much was OVER THE TOP, in the practical sense, like - for instance - the mixing of beef and cheese in one's diet. This was a rule that was birthed from the THREE Scripture verses:

Exodus 23:19 (KJV) and Exodus 34:26 (KJV)

19 and 26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

and

Deuteronomy 14:21 (KJV)

21 Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Again, it was the "OVERKILL" in the appication of these verses that exibits the downfall of the Talmud. To avoid breaking this commandment, they would not allow the eating of ANY meat with ANY dairy product!

It was just that kind of NONSENSE to which the Messiah reacted! Tithing the mint and the cumin were far less important than justice and mercy! He wouldn't let them get away with "it's korban (dedicated to God)" when their parents needed anything, reminding them that they were to HONOR THEIR FATHERS AND MOTHERS!

The whole diatribe against them in Matthew 23 is when Yeeshuwa` told them (in verse 37) that He would have LOVED to gather their children together, but they wouldn't allow it! That's when He pronounced them "DESOLATE" (verse 38 and Daniel 9:27).

Right after that is when He said, "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

His quotation of ...

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. 23 This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes. 24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed [be] he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

[Luther]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Luther.

Oh, yes, I agree with you. However, one must understand that prophecies just tell the truth of what will happen, whether the activity is sanctioned by God or not. 

Look, the Jews have the Temple furniture, the priests' clothes, the red heifers, the walls for the Temple, and all the plans ready to go! All they have to do is allow the building to begin!

Whether they are "right or wrong" in building the Temple and beginning the Temple worship again is irrelevant; the prophecy SHALL be fulfilled, and when it is, we're one step closer to the Return of the Messiah!

It's not just the "Old Covenant" pitted against the "New Covenant." That dichotomy shows a LIMITED view of history! More important, from the perspective of the Messiah's future Kingdom is the DAVIDIC Covenant! THAT'S the covenant that counts! The New Covenant, as originally prophesied, is for the nation of Israel, as the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel when the prophecies were first written! They are in anticipation of the REUNIFICATION of Israel under the Messiah's rule!

The P'rushiym ("Pharisees") were not a bad lot. For most of that time period, they were the HEROES of the Jews! The word means "Separatists," and they believed in "separating themselves" from the evils and corruption in the world at that time. Remember: Paul was a "Pharisee of the Pharisees!"

HOWEVER, there are always a few bad apples who give the "black eye" to the rest. Such was the case in power at the time that the Messiah came. The Talmud was originally the "oral Torah" as opposed to the "written Torah." The written Torah was the first five books of the Bible, but the Talmud was the applications of that written Torah in many different instances that occurred in life. Some of it was good; however, much was OVER THE TOP, in the practical sense, like - for instance - the mixing of beef and cheese in one's diet. This was a rule that was birthed from the THREE Scripture verses:

Exodus 23:19 (KJV) and Exodus 34:26 (KJV)

19 and 26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

and

Deuteronomy 14:21 (KJV)

21 Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Again, it was the "OVERKILL" in the appication of these verses that exibits the downfall of the Talmud. To avoid breaking this commandment, they would not allow the eating of ANY meat with ANY dairy product!

It was just that kind of NONSENSE to which the Messiah reacted! Tithing the mint and the cumin were far less important than justice and mercy! He wouldn't let them get away with "it's korban (dedicated to God)" when their parents needed anything, reminding them that they were to HONOR THEIR FATHERS AND MOTHERS!

The whole diatribe against them in Matthew 23 is when Yeeshuwa` told them (in verse 37) that He would have LOVED to gather their children together, but they wouldn't allow it! That's when He pronounced them "DESOLATE" (verse 38 and Daniel 9:27).

Right after that is when He said, "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

His quotation of ...

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. 23 This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes. 24 This [is] the day [which] the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed [be] he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

You seem like the kind of person where I think I could ask you some questions without taking it the wrong way. So let me ask you. And this is probably the most important distinction a Christian can make when understanding what a  "Jew" believes. 

1) Do you believe the religion of today's jews is the same as the religion of the Old Testament Israelites?

2) How familiar are you with the talmud?

[Locust]

Replacement theology. ya ok thats one way to put it 

Acts 15:14 Simeon has described how God first concerned Himself about taking a people for His name from among the Gentiles.

lets face it Israel screwed up. even now, they refuse to accept Jesus as the  Messiah. God turned to the nations to find a people that would  pay him the dew Honor he rightly deserves. Call them spiritual Israel , they are circumcised in the heart.

Edited January 16 by Locust

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Luther said:

You seem like the kind of person where I think I could ask you some questions without taking it the wrong way. So let me ask you. And this is probably the most important distinction a Christian can make when understanding what a  "Jew" believes. 

1) Do you believe the religion of today's jews is the same as the religion of the Old Testament Israelites?

Shallm, @Luther.

I believe that the religion of worshipping YHWH God has not changed, because YHWH God has not changed. The Jews, even today's Jews, still are the "People of the Book," and they HAVE the Book in the original language.

The MODIFICATIONS that such works like the Talmud have put upon the original worship of YHWH God are an addition that tends to TAINT the religion. So, no, the religious practices that they have today are not purely the same as the religion of the OT saints. Yeeshuwa` knew this as early as the First Century!

However, the REVIVAL of the language as the national language of the modern state of Israel has also REVIVED much of the religion of the OT saints, as well. What they do not have, however, is the means for making sacrifices to God. They are RIPE to be introduced to the Sacrifice that GOD HIMSELF made with the body of Yeeshuwa` the Messiah! That is clear from Isaiah 53:10, and we should be ENCOURAGING the Jews to recognize that Sacrifice and make it their own!

"... when thou shalt make his (the Messiah's) soul (His "air-breathing creature") an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD (YHWH) shall prosper in his hand. He (the LORD, YHWH) shall see of the travail of his (the Messiah's) soul ("air-breathing creature"), and SHALL BE SATISFIED: 'by his knowledge shall my righteous servant (the Messiah) JUSTIFY MANY; for HE (the Messiah) SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES.'" (Isaiah 53:10-11)

It can't be any clearer than that! AND, it comes DIRECTLY from their own TANAKH, their own Scriptures (which is also our OT)!

 

 

12 hours ago, Luther said:

2) How familiar are you with the talmud?

Not very much. I don't study it; I study the Scriptures. The Talmud is very much like our commentaries on the Scriptures. "Let GOD be true, and every man a liar!" (Romans 3:4) And, for the record, I don't think too highly of our commentaries, either. They are WORKS OF MEN, trying to understand God's Word! One can see a few things from them because they broaden our knowledge about how other HUMAN BEINGS understood the Scriptures, but they are NOT the Scriptures themselves! Again, "Let GOD be true, and EVERY man a liar!"

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Locust said:

Replacement theology. ya ok thats one way to put it 

Acts 15:14 Simeon has described how God first concerned Himself about taking a people for His name from among the Gentiles.

lets face it Israel screwed up. even now, they refuse to accept Jesus as the  Messiah. God turned to the nations to find a people that would  pay him the due Honor He rightly deserves. Call them spiritual Israel , they are circumcised in the heart.

Shalom, @Locust.

Sure, they "blew it." Just as we would have done, had we been in their place! "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God!" (Romans 3:23)

God "turned to the nations" "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in!" (Romans 11:25)

God doesn't "lose to Satan" at all, not in one thing! He will restore the nation of Israel, just as He will restore this earth to the earth before the Flood!

However, we're currently in the "time of Jacob's Trouble," which is the same as "the Tribulation." That is the CRUCIBLE in which the Jews find themselves for now. They have been victims of their own "DESOLATION" since the Messiah "LEFT THEM DESOLATE" (Matthew 23:38; Daniel 9:27).

They've suffered the Roman persecutions; they were hounded from nation to nation throughout the world, and particularly within Europe through the Diaspora. They have helped countries to prosper, but the moment some calamity arises, they were BLAMED for it, and driven out of that country into the next! They were chased from place to place, suffering in the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the Pogroms in Russia, and the Holocaust!

They finally were allowed to move back to their own homeland by the British under the Balfour Declaration, and have suffered terrorist attacks from all the nations surrounding them ever since (and some from within their borders, such as the late-comers, the "Palestinians" (the name being an old Romanization of the term "Philitines").

These "Palestinians," by the way, didn't come FROM "Palestine"; they were INTRODUCED into the Land, exiled by the Jordanians! The Jordanians "SEEDED" the Land with non-Israelis just to make trouble for the new, to-be-formed state of Israel as a homeland for the Jews!

All the same, the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, are MIRACULOUSLY BACK in their Land, and God has blessed them ever since, despite their past infidelity to Him! And, they have since begun to work with the Land to make it prosperous again. Now that it's "blooming like a rose," the Muslims want it for themselves. (They never wanted it when it was a salt-seeded wasteland, salted by the Romans many years earlier to make the Land unlivable.)

Are they there, yet? No. WILL THEY BE? MOST DEFINITELY! "God doesn't renege on His gifts or His calling!" (Romans 11:29) "All Israel shall be saved!" (Romans 11:26a)

It is OUR RESPONSIBILITY to tell them about their Messiah - the Messiah of God whom they missed the first time He came! (To the Jew and the Gentile) "Even so have these also now not believed, that THROUGH YOUR MERCY THEY ALSO MAY OBTAIN MERCY." (Romans 11:31).

Romans 2:1-10 (KJV)

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who "will render to every man according to his deeds" (Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12) 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and ALSO OF THE GENTILE; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and ALSO TO THE GENTILE:

Later Paul added,

Romans 2:17-29; 3:1-4 (KJV)

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest [his] will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you," as it is written (Isa. 52:5, see XII; Ezek. 36:20, 22). 25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision? 2 MUCH EVERY WAY: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles (statements; sayings) of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 GOD FORBID!: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

"That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." (Psalm 51:4)

(Remember: There weren't any chapter divisions before the 15th Century A.D. Even paragraph divisions were questionable.)

So, although they cannot count on being Jews and keeping the Law to justify themselves, for "ALL have sinned!" Nevertheless, they are still the "people of the Book!" And, they are therefore a people still with the greater advantage! We who are Gentiles and of the uncircumcision, are graffed in among them and can be accounted as "Jews" through the circumcision of the heart!

So, they are down, but not out! They SHALL make a come-back, when they are ready to receive God's Messiah for their King. It makes God out to be a LIAR to say otherwise!

[Alive]

15 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

God doesn't "lose to Satan" at all, not in one thing! He will restore the nation of Israel, just as He will restore this earth to the earth before the Flood!

Hey @Retrobyter

I would like to hear more of your thoughts on the red colored phrase.

I don't think I have ever heard this offered.

Thanks.

[Luther]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shallm, @Luther.

I believe that the religion of worshipping YHWH God has not changed, because YHWH God has not changed. The Jews, even today's Jews, still are the "People of the Book," and they HAVE the Book in the original language.

The MODIFICATIONS that such works like the Talmud have put upon the original worship of YHWH God are an addition that tends to TAINT the religion. So, no, the religious practices that they have today are not purely the same as the religion of the OT saints. Yeeshuwa` knew this as early as the First Century!

However, the REVIVAL of the language as the national language of the modern state of Israel has also REVIVED much of the religion of the OT saints, as well. What they do not have, however, is the means for making sacrifices to God. They are RIPE to be introduced to the Sacrifice that GOD HIMSELF made with the body of Yeeshuwa` the Messiah! That is clear from Isaiah 53:10, and we should be ENCOURAGING the Jews to recognize that Sacrifice and make it their own!

"... when thou shalt make his (the Messiah's) soul (His "air-breathing creature") an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD (YHWH) shall prosper in his hand. He (the LORD, YHWH) shall see of the travail of his (the Messiah's) soul ("air-breathing creature"), and SHALL BE SATISFIED: 'by his knowledge shall my righteous servant (the Messiah) JUSTIFY MANY; for HE (the Messiah) SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES.'" (Isaiah 53:10-11)

It can't be any clearer than that! AND, it comes DIRECTLY from their own TANAKH, their own Scriptures (which is also our OT)!

 

 

Not very much. I don't study it; I study the Scriptures. The Talmud is very much like our commentaries on the Scriptures. "Let GOD be true, and every man a liar!" (Romans 3:4) And, for the record, I don't think too highly of our commentaries, either. They are WORKS OF MEN, trying to understand God's Word! One can see a few things from them because they broaden our knowledge about how other HUMAN BEINGS understood the Scriptures, but they are NOT the Scriptures themselves! Again, "Let GOD be true, and EVERY man a liar!"

 

Isaiah 53:10-12

[10]Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

[11]He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

[12]Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

When you read these verses, can you agree that when " He shall see His seed", His seed would include all Christians, no matter what their background is? It doesn't matter to God so it shouldn't matter to us. 

" for He shall bear their iniquities"

" He bare the sin of many"

Some Christians won't recognize  prophecy such as this in the OT that it clearly includes all in Christ. They are missing out on the wonderful promises God made to them in the OT as well. So sad. 

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You said: "I believe that the religion of worshipping YHWH God has not changed, because YHWH God has not changed. The Jews, even today's Jews, still are the "People of the Book," and they HAVE the Book in the original language."

Yes, we know that God never changes. Old Testament Israel, even with the Tanakh, and even with all the mighty signs and wonders and promises, on the whole rejected God's law (However there was a remnant that God saved that was able to keep God's law through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ). 

My point is, you make it seem ( correct me if I'm wrong) like just because they were or are considered " people of the book", the statement  cannot have us conclude that God was with them, that His plans were still with them. Otherwise that would defeat the whole purpose of Jesus Christ ( God forbid). 

But it gets worse, because their man made traditions, as codified in the  "talmud " ( after the Cross), have become their ultimate authority, not the Tanakh. I say this so you will understand that today's "jews" do not even worship the God of the Old Testament. Judaism's God are the jews collectively as a worldwide family. And that would be the most significant difference between Judaism and the religion of Old Testament Israel. 

Friend, all I am saying here is that we have to have all the information at our disposal. You may disagree with my last comments but I am very sure based upon their own statement of belief.

Hope to hear from you.