Happiness vs. Joy

Marilyn C · March 30

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Last time I saw our Lord's throne it was set up o earth. In Matthew 25:31-46 "ALL Nations" are gathered before it. Unless there is a rapture for every man, woman and child alive after the Tribulation, that "Throne of His glory" must be on earth. The throne that Christ sits on after Revelation Chapter 4 while He present in the clouds is not a "Thronos", but a "Bema".

But we've had this out a few times now, so let's do a turn about. Why don't you tell me, in one paragraph minimum, a truth that the Lord recently showed you. I will tell mine and you can object or enjoy with me. Feel free.

I always wondered why the fifth seal was the saints under the altar in Revelation 6:9. They're dead and have no bearing on events on earth. I judge the first four seals to be the "birth pangs" predicted in Matthew 24. Why suddenly leave the horsemen who plague the earth and turn to a place under the earth (for the altar of sacrifice must be fixed to the earth - Ex.20:25-26). Well, i mulled this point for literally decades. And then the light went on and i realized that one of the most scary things facing men s the thought that God the seed of Abraham His friends and anybody who touched them actually touched God. And so much so that He (God) would recompense them double (Rev.18:6). Christian bashing is a big no-no. The world's rough handling of the children of God is going to be rvenge - so much so that men will seek death. This retribution takes on new dimensions when you see that in the judgment of the Nations, th goats could be sentenced to the Lake of Fire for refusing a Christian a glass of water.

In the age of grace we are psyched to forgive such a slight, but God won't. He made this a matter of Covenant, and He has the enviable reputation of doing exactly what He promised. In Revelation 12 we have the warning of "woe" to the inhabitants of the earth when Satan is ejected from heaven. He is, no doubt, a formidable enemy. But his actions are not one of the seals. How the Lord values us and what level of fellowship we have been classed with. Oh how I have misjudged the Father's view of His saints! When dealing with each other it might do us well to remember what level of friendship we have in God's eyes, and how He jealously avenges the slightest injury to one of His.

Hi Ad Hoc,

Well, here we go again.

The `throne on earth,` is called David`s throne. The Lord is over that but that is NOT the Lord`s seat of Power and Authority. That throne is in the highest on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Ps. 2: 6)

When the Lord comes in power and great glory with His angelic army He has the authority and power of that heavenly throne. That is why it is called the `throne of His glory.` (Matt. 24: 31)

No one on earth can give the Lord His throne, His power and authority. That is why he said, `My Kingdom (rule, authority) is not of (from) this world. (John. 18: 36)

The `throne` in Rev. 4 is -

Let us now look closer at the One on this throne -the High Priest and King. The gem stones are given to reveal more understanding to us.

The Gem Stones.

`And he who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius in appearance;...`

(Rev. 4: 3)

The Jasper gem stone was the last on the High Priest`s breastplate. It stood for the tribe of Naphtali whose name means to prevail, to conquer - `I have prevailed.` (Gen. 30: 8)

Prevail – to gain the victory, to conquer. (The Concise English Dictionary)

Christ was the last Adam and He prevailed over the world, the flesh and the devil. He has secured the supreme victory over the greatest foe.

The Sardius gem stone was the first on the High Priest`s breastplate. It stood for the tribe of Judah. The prophetic word reveals that He would be the ruler over the other tribes. (Gen. 49: 8 - 12) The Hebrew `yadah,` (Judah) means to use the hand, indicating power and dominion.

The Emerald gem stone is also on the High Priest`s breastplate, and was for the tribe of Reuben. He was the first born of Jacob, and his heir. To the heir would be given three portions - the birthright, (double blessing), the priesthood and the kingdom.

`and there was a rainbow around the throne,

in appearance like an emerald.`

(Rev. 4: 3)

The `One` on the throne then is the High Priest of Heaven, the conqueror, the Sovereign Ruler and Heir of all the Father`s estates.

AdHoc · March 30

16 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

Well, here we go again.

The `throne on earth,` is called David`s throne. The Lord is over that but that is NOT the Lord`s seat of Power and Authority. That throne is in the highest on the heavenly Mount Zion. (Ps. 2: 6)

When the Lord comes in power and great glory with His angelic army He has the authority and power of that heavenly throne. That is why it is called the `throne of His glory.` (Matt. 24: 31)

No one on earth can give the Lord His throne, His power and authority. That is why he said, `My Kingdom (rule, authority) is not of (from) this world. (John. 18: 36)

The `throne` in Rev. 4 is -

Let us now look closer at the One on this throne -the High Priest and King. The gem stones are given to reveal more understanding to us.

The Gem Stones.

                `And he who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius in appearance;...`

                                                                                                                 (Rev. 4: 3)

The Jasper gem stone was the last on the High Priest`s breastplate. It stood for the tribe of Naphtali whose name means to prevail, to conquer - `I have prevailed.` (Gen. 30: 8)

                 Prevail – to gain the victory, to conquer. (The Concise English Dictionary)

Christ was the last Adam and He prevailed over the world, the flesh and the devil. He has secured the supreme victory over the greatest foe.

The Sardius gem stone was the first on the High Priest`s breastplate. It stood for the tribe of Judah. The prophetic word reveals that He would be the ruler over the other tribes. (Gen. 49: 8 - 12) The Hebrew `yadah,` (Judah) means to use the hand, indicating power and dominion.

The Emerald gem stone is also on the High Priest`s breastplate, and was for the tribe of Reuben. He was the first born of Jacob, and his heir. To the heir would be given three portions - the birthright, (double blessing), the priesthood and the kingdom.

                                 `and there was a rainbow around the throne,

                                           in appearance like an emerald.`

                                                                                         (Rev. 4: 3)

The `One` on the throne then is the High Priest of Heaven, the conqueror, the Sovereign Ruler and Heir of all the Father`s estates.

Thank you for your reply. You have quoted me but not answered my points. 50% of any argument is showing the opponent wrong. You have let my points stand. I will show your points contrary to scripture.

No one denies that authority comes from heaven. No one denies that there is an heavenly and an earthly Zion. The point under discussion is where, and what, constitutes Christ's Kingdom? You have placed Christ in heaven during the Millennium together with the ruling martyrs and overcomers. As proof you bring Psalm 2:6 and the TYPE of the High Priest of the earthly tabernacle.

Verse 1. Are the heathen in heaven? Are they ever elevated to rage against a King in heaven?
Verse 2. How do the kings of EARTH set themselves against BOTH the Lord and His anointed if they are in heaven?
Verse 3. How does an earthly placed rebel hoard put "bands" on those in heaven?
Verse 4. Shows Who is in heaven. It is Adonai Who begets a Son in verse 7 - not the Son
Verse 6. The Subject is YAHWEH. It is He that is in heaven
Verse 7. The most High begets a Son FOR THE EARTH for INHERITANCE
Verse 8. Christ's possession is the heathen and "the uttermost parts of the EARTH"
Verse 9. The active rule is where the "heathen" are - on earth

During this time of rule Jesus is called "Emmanuel" meaning "God WITH us". If Israel is on earth, so is te Lord
Jerusalem is called "the City of the Great King"
If our Lord was in heaven he would be EXILED from the earth
The type of this rule is Joseph. He did not leave Egypt
Daniel 2 says that Chris's Kingdom "Fills THE EARTH"
Revelation 11:15 says that the kingdoms of THE EARTH have become His
Psalm 8 shows the place of the Kingdom - where the cattle are
Matthew 25 has Jesus GOING to receive the Kingdom but RETURNING to rule

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. (Ps.2:1–9).

Yur use of the High Priest of Israel is vain. Since the glory of God entered the Tabernacle the Kingly and Priestly function where divided. Ezekiel shows this unchanged with the line of Zadok - a Levite - as High Priest.David, a Judean, is king in the Millennium (Jer.30:9). Jesus, High Priest of the "heavenly calling", is BOTH High Priest AND King. The precious stones are given to Christians. Israel retains the symbol of pearls - a sign of righteousness because their new Covenant is one of Law (Jer.31:31-33). Israel ar "concluded in unbelief" (Rom.11). That is, they can be God's people by Covenant but not by rebirth (Jn.1:11-13 3:3-5).

You have missed the truth in almost every statement. You can't build doctrine on Types and Shadows. You need direct statements. Never the less, you remain, as always, a valuable sister in the Lord. Get ready to rule - on earth!

Marilyn C · March 30

26 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your reply. You have quoted me but not answered my points. 50% of any argument is showing the opponent wrong. You have let my points stand. I will show your points contrary to scripture.

No one denies that authority comes from heaven. No one denies that there is an heavenly and an earthly Zion. The point under discussion is where, and what, constitutes Christ's Kingdom? You have placed Christ in heaven during the Millennium together with the ruling martyrs and overcomers. As proof you bring Psalm 2:6 and the TYPE of the High Priest of the earthly tabernacle.

Verse 1. Are the heathen in heaven? Are they ever elevated to rage against a King in heaven?
Verse 2. How do the kings of EARTH set themselves against BOTH the Lord and His anointed if they are in heaven?
Verse 3. How does an earthly placed rebel hoard put "bands" on those in heaven?
Verse 4. Shows Who is in heaven. It is Adonai Who begets a Son in verse 7 - not the Son
Verse 6. The Subject is YAHWEH. It is He that is in heaven
Verse 7. The most High begets a Son FOR THE EARTH for INHERITANCE
Verse 8. Christ's possession is the heathen and "the uttermost parts of the EARTH"
Verse 9. The active rule is where the "heathen" are - on earth

During this time of rule Jesus is called "Emmanuel" meaning "God WITH us". If Israel is on earth, so is te Lord
Jerusalem is called "the City of the Great King"
If our Lord was in heaven he would be EXILED from the earth
The type of this rule is Joseph. He did not leave Egypt
Daniel 2 says that Chris's Kingdom "Fills THE EARTH"
Revelation 11:15 says that the kingdoms of THE EARTH have become His
Psalm 8 shows the place of the Kingdom - where the cattle are
Matthew 25 has Jesus GOING to receive the Kingdom but RETURNING to rule

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. (Ps.2:1–9).

Yur use of the High Priest of Israel is vain. Since the glory of God entered the Tabernacle the Kingly and Priestly function where divided. Ezekiel shows this unchanged with the line of Zadok - a Levite - as High Priest.David, a Judean, is king in the Millennium (Jer.30:9). Jesus, High Priest of the "heavenly calling", is BOTH High Priest AND King. The precious stones are given to Christians. Israel retains the symbol of pearls - a sign of righteousness because their new Covenant is one of Law (Jer.31:31-33). Israel ar "concluded in unbelief" (Rom.11). That is, they can be God's people by Covenant but not by rebirth (Jn.1:11-13 3:3-5).

You have missed the truth in almost every statement. You can't build doctrine on Types and Shadows. You need direct statements. Never the less, you remain, as always, a valuable sister in the Lord. Get ready to rule - on earth!

`Now this is the main point of the things we are saying. We have such a high priest who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected and not man.

For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this one also should have something to offer. For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law; ...` (Heb. 8: 1 - 4)

In the millennium there are priests, thus the Lord is NOT ON earth.

`And I will take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD. ` (Isa. 66: 21)

`the priests, the Levites, the sons of Zadok, who kept charge of my sanctuary....they shall enter my sanctuary....they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and the unholy...` (Ez. 44: 15, 16, 23)

And you are confusing the word kingdom as to mean the Lord is there where in fact it is His rule over all of God`s great kingdom not just the earth.

AdHoc · March 31

22 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`Now this is the main point of the things we are saying. We have such a high priest who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected and not man.

For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this one also should have something to offer. For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law; ...` (Heb. 8: 1 - 4)

In the millennium there are priests, thus the Lord is NOT ON earth.

`And I will take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD. ` (Isa. 66: 21)

`the priests, the Levites, the sons of Zadok, who kept charge of my sanctuary....they shall enter my sanctuary....they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and the unholy...` (Ez. 44: 15, 16, 23)

And you are confusing the word kingdom as to mean the Lord is there where in fact it is His rule over all of God`s great kingdom not just the earth.

Okay. You did not object to my arguments again. In your argument above you have applied a truth meant for THIS AGE. Although at the writing of Hebrews the Second Temple was standing, the Tabernacle is used by the inspired author. The converts from Israel to Christians throws them out of the Egypt ( the world) but not yet in their inheritance - the Kingdom. Since the Temple was still standing, the Levitical Priesthood was still intact. The author of Hebrews shows the superiority of Christ, High Priest of Melchizedek versus the Aaronic Priesthood which was subject to sin and death. The "WE" is opposed to "THEY" which still embrace the earthly Tabernacle and the Law. The Law will not change one jot or tittle, so Christ could never be a Priest of Israel. Added to this, Christ is High Priest for "WE" (3:1) in this age in heaven and HEAD of the Church. When He leaves heaven, He gets His own thrown and is primarily KING. Intercession is over when judgment comes. Our Lord Jesus leaves heaven to return to earth with HIS throne of glory (Rev.19).

But we have deviated a long way from "Joy". So unless something earth-shattering comes up, I'll not address this theme again in this thread.

But, thanks for the exchange.

Marilyn C · March 31

23 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Okay. You did not object to my arguments again. In your argument above you have applied a truth meant for THIS AGE. Although at the writing of Hebrews the Second Temple was standing, the Tabernacle is used by the inspired author. The converts from Israel to Christians throws them out of the Egypt ( the world) but not yet in their inheritance - the Kingdom. Since the Temple was still standing, the Levitical Priesthood was still intact. The author of Hebrews shows the superiority of Christ, High Priest of Melchizedek versus the Aaronic Priesthood which was subject to sin and death. The "WE" is opposed to "THEY" which still embrace the earthly Tabernacle and the Law. The Law will not change one jot or tittle, so Christ could never be a Priest of Israel. Added to this, Christ is High Priest for "WE" (3:1) in this age in heaven and HEAD of the Church. When He leaves heaven, He gets His own thrown and is primarily KING. Intercession is over when judgment comes. Our Lord Jesus leaves heaven to return to earth with HIS throne of glory (Rev.19).

But we have deviated a long way from "Joy". So unless something earth-shattering comes up, I'll not address this theme again in this thread.

But, thanks for the exchange.

Yes, we have deviated, however the joy in my heart is that I will be with all the Body of Christ acclaiming the Lord Jesus Christ, heir of all of His Father`s estates, as He is visibly crowned before us all in the third heaven, the highest of all.

timf · April 1

It might be helpful to consider the "kingdom" in two parts. Christians are described as translated into the kingdom (present tense) and Israel can look forward to the earthly kingdom. If all things are to be brought together under Christ in heaven and earth, we might consider that since we are "in Christ" and together with him are "seated in the heveanlies", that this kingdom will be expanded to include earth when the events described in Revelation 4-5 take place.

Regarding happiness, I see a parallel with the peace of Christ contrasted to the peace of the world. The peace of Christ is transcendent. It does not depend on circumstances. While the sin and suffering we inflict on ourselves and others can be sorrowful, there can still be happiness that God's will will be accomplished.

AdHoc · April 1

2 hours ago, timf said:

It might be helpful to consider the "kingdom" in two parts. Christians are described as translated into the kingdom (present tense) and Israel can look forward to the earthly kingdom. If all things are to be brought together under Christ in heaven and earth, we might consider that since we are "in Christ" and together with him are "seated in the heveanlies", that this kingdom will be expanded to include earth when the events described in Revelation 4-5 take place.

Regarding happiness, I see a parallel with the peace of Christ contrasted to the peace of the world. The peace of Christ is transcendent. It does not depend on circumstances. While the sin and suffering we inflict on ourselves and others can be sorrowful, there can still be happiness that God's will will be accomplished.

Nice posting. This is how I see the Kingdom.

A Kingdom is a sphere or area where a certain king dwells and his commands are carried out.If a local rebellion breaks out it does not annul the king. If he is a capable king he will, in due course, subdue the insurrection. If he cannot, or will not, he may go into exile and control the subjugation from there. But while he is away, his commands are not likely to be obeyed. Our Lord introduced four kingdoms while he was on earth - all local. He predicted that this would all end in a universal kingdom, but in due time.

1. If the king decides on a number of campaigns in his road to universal kingship, it is his tactics and not a sign of weakness. So our Lord Jesus took on the principalities first. So He said that if he cast out demons the kingdom had come upon us (Matt.12:28, Lk.11:20). Men might be in rebellion but the fallen angels and demons listened.

2. David set the pace for worthy kingship of Israel. He is, by covenant, promised ta his family/offspring would occupy the throne of Israel. This was offered to Israel by Jesus and refused. Caesar was the choice of Israel and so until the times of the Gentile are full, Israel will not have the seed of David (Act.15:14-16). Since Israel is Christ's divine possession, He will reign one day and then forever.

3. The Church is given two pillars. Resurrection (the gates of Hades - not hell) and the Keys of the Kingdom OF HEAVEN. Christianity at large believe in the failure of God to establish is Kingdom on earth and have a doctrine that says God must migrate the Church to heaven. But John Baptist, Jesus, and His disciples taught a heavenly Kingdom COMING TO EARTH. This Kingdom - the whole world (Rom.4:13) was delayed by Israel's refusal to embrace it and by God having to raise a New Man to exercise this Kingdom. The Church therefore may not exercise rule over the nations but over itself it must exercise divine government. Whatsoever is legally bound by the Church is recorded and bound in heaven. At His coming the King will ratify this. If a saint misbehaves and refuses grace and repentance, he will be judged by the King as unfit for the Kingdom and its joy. Thus, the Church is the Kingdom, but Matthew 13 says that it is a Kingdom IN MYSTERY.

4. Since the main proponents of the present kingdom on earth have been legally dealt with, it remains for the King to subdue the remainder of the rebellion MILITARILY. The King takes His army of trained servants, gathers them to the sky to select those worthy, as Abraham and Gideon did, and when He has drawn the total army of the Gentiles under one General - the Beast, to an appropriate place, breaks their back militarily. With no pockets of rebellion left and the leaders in prison, the King sets up first a seat of Judgment and then institutes His UNIVERSAL REIGN from Jerusalem. Since the remainder of men on earth, and their children after them, will still be in the flesh, the rule of the rod of iron will be exercised for a thousand years. "Iron" unlike steel, cannot bend, and a "rod" is for correction, chastisement and a weapon. For one thousand years Jesus and His worthy co-kings, will administer unbending, commensurate and immediate justice upon all the world.

Two crucial points need mentioning.
1. A Kingdom is made of Five companies of men. 1. The King, 2. His administration and police force, 3. His servants, 4. Citizens or Subjects in good standing, and 5. Citizens and/or Subjects in jail. In every mention of this Kingdom as to who will hold the privileged positions, scripture indicates that they will be apportioned according to WORKS. Every born again Christian will be heir and have eternal life, but the Kingdom of Heaven is to EARNED

2. Everything that God does must be tested. During the thousand years of Christ's Kingdom there will be long life and no war. Murderers will meet with death because Noah's Covenant will still be in force (Gen.9:17), so the earth's population will boom. Toward the end of the 1,000 years most, if not all the Gentiles, will not have known the earth under Satan, but they will have Adam's nature (Rom.5:12-17). They must be tested. Who will they choose? So Satan is loosed a while and allowed to propose a rebellion. Many of the world's subjects will join it as the carnal mind is at enmity with God. This battle is for the Capital of the world - Jerusalem. The weapons are primitive because during the thousand years the arm's industry were forbidden to build weapons. Because of 1,000 years of peace under Christ, the cities are un-walled. While Ezekiel 37 deals with Israel's restoration at the end of this age, Ezekiel 38 into 39 deals with Harmon-Gog, the battle for the Capital of the earth. The death-toll will probably exceed that of Armageddon. All men will have been tested. Christ's Kingdom will have been tested. It will be found to be the only Kingdom that ever remain undefeatable and immovable.

Dennis1209 · April 2

On 3/28/2025 at 6:39 PM, AdHoc said:

Adam and Eve were not made for utopia. They were made to "subdue".

Interesting point. What was there to subdue outside the Garden of Eden?

: qal: pf. כָּֽבְשׁוּ; impf. תִּכְבְּשׁוּ, וַיִּכְבְּשׁוּם Je 34:11 Qr (Kt hif.); impv. כִּבְשֻׁהָ; inf. לִכְבֹ(וֹ)שׁ; pt. כֹּבְשִׁים:—1. w. acc. subject s.one, make subservient: earth Gn 1:28, people Je 34:16, as slaves Je 34:11;—2. violate, rape (a woman) Est 7:8.

nif.: pf. נִכְבְּשָׁה; pt. נִכְבָּשׁוֹת:—1. be subjugated (of land) Nu 32:22;—2. be degraded (sexually?) Ne 5:5.

piel: pf. כִּבֵּשׁ: subdue, subjugate (peoples) 2 S 8:11. †

hif.: impf. וַיַּכְבִּישׁוּם: subdue, subjugate (peoples) Je 34:11 Kt †^{^[1]}

^{^[1]} Holladay, William Lee, and Ludwig Köhler. 2000. In A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, 151. Leiden: Brill.

AdHoc · April 2

8 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Interesting point. What was there to subdue outside the Garden of Eden?

: qal: pf. כָּֽבְשׁוּ; impf. תִּכְבְּשׁוּ, וַיִּכְבְּשׁוּם Je 34:11 Qr (Kt hif.); impv. כִּבְשֻׁהָ; inf. לִכְבֹ(וֹ)שׁ; pt. כֹּבְשִׁים:—1. w. acc. subject s.one, make subservient: earth Gn 1:28, people Je 34:16, as slaves Je 34:11;—2. violate, rape (a woman) Est 7:8.

nif.: pf. נִכְבְּשָׁה; pt. נִכְבָּשׁוֹת:—1. be subjugated (of land) Nu 32:22;—2. be degraded (sexually?) Ne 5:5.

piel: pf. כִּבֵּשׁ: subdue, subjugate (peoples) 2 S 8:11. †

hif.: impf. וַיַּכְבִּישׁוּם: subdue, subjugate (peoples) Je 34:11 Kt †^{^[1]}

^{^[1]} Holladay, William Lee, and Ludwig Köhler. 2000. In A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, 151. Leiden: Brill.

The conditions of the earth in Genesis 1:2, covered with water and darkness, are consistently signs of God's judgment. Somebody did something so the earth "became a chaos" (Gen.1:2 lit.). Although God renewed the earth in six days there sis no record of Him restricting an enemy. But as the history of the earth unfolds in diverse scriptures, it become evident that there was;
1. A Tabernacle in heaven. The Tabernacle which Moses had to copy was built a special way to create a separate dwelling for God where He could meet with His creature without His holiness being infringed upon.

2. A serpent in the Garden which God made to have fellowship with His man.

3. Angels who were disobedient

4. After the fall of man, the vast majority of men where at enmity with God

5. Wild animals that could prevent the government by humans

6. An army of demons one of which could subdue seven adult men

It does not take much research to establish that man was not really equipped to subdue these entities without God's input. In Job we see the angels having to get permission to breach a protective wall around Job and on the post flood earth God had to administer the animals with a special fear of men. This greater power of angels, demons, animals and evil men was to be regulated by the man, but in dependence upon God. God is a God of government.

Marilyn C · April 3

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The conditions of the earth in Genesis 1:2, covered with water and darkness, are consistently signs of God's judgment. Somebody did something so the earth "became a chaos" (Gen.1:2 lit.). Although God renewed the earth in six days there sis no record of Him restricting an enemy. But as the history of the earth unfolds in diverse scriptures, it become evident that there was;
1. A Tabernacle in heaven. The Tabernacle which Moses had to copy was built a special way to create a separate dwelling for God where He could meet with His creature without His holiness being infringed upon.

2. A serpent in the Garden which God made to have fellowship with His man.

3. Angels who were disobedient

4. After the fall of man, the vast majority of men where at enmity with God

5. Wild animals that could prevent the government by humans

6. An army of demons one of which could subdue seven adult men

It does not take much research to establish that man was not really equipped to subdue these entities without God's input. In Job we see the angels having to get permission to breach a protective wall around Job and on the post flood earth God had to administer the animals with a special fear of men. This greater power of angels, demons, animals and evil men was to be regulated by the man, but in dependence upon God. God is a God of government.

Hi Ad Hoc,

If there ever was a `somebody` who `did something so the earth became chaos,` then Christ would have needed to die back then. But no, all false. The Hebrew word for `renew` is to fill up, NOT to renew again as our English word.

1. The Tabernacle in heaven is God`s throne with Christ`s body the veil and His precious blood brought in.

`the greater more perfect tabernacle ....the Most Holy Place.....to appear in the presence of God for us...` (Heb. 9: 11, 12, 24)

2. God`s word tells us that the `symbol` of the serpent in the garden is Satan.

`the great dragon was cast out that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan,...` (Rev. 12: 9)

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