Pre-Trib Rapture, some proofs

[Locust]

9 hours ago, Michael37 said:

What if no-one can understand your meaning?

Matthew 22:14

[farouk]

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

A pre trib 'part/piece' of the church fly away to safety before the fulness of the Gentiles comes in' is not found anywhere in the NT.  Although what we do FIND are things like

Matt 1 we have John the Baptist PROCLAIMING EXACTLY  what is coming....

1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


And when the 'PRE TRIB' THEORY is taken out of this, it too is PROCLAIMING EXACTLY  what is coming

1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This tells us either

We are to believe it as it is written and we are going to be gathered to the Lord Jesus Christ AFTER the workings of Satan and be saved
OR
We are going to perish because we have REFUSED TO receive the truth and be saved. And when we refuse, when we remain willfully ignorant, God sends a strong delusion and that is to believe a lie:

12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It's that simple.  There is no way around it. These words ARE WRITTEN HERE FOR A REASON.  3 TIMES we are given this TRUTH.

Believe you will be gathered BEFORE is belief in a lie, perish. Believe you will be gathered AFTER is pleasure in righteousness, be saved. 
Be taken, perish. Endure to the end, saved.
Believe 'lo there is Christ', perish.  Don't believe it, saved.  
Don't pick up your cross and follow Him (He was crucified) perish.  Pick up your cross and follow Him (you might get killed), live.
Take the mark of the beast perish.  Remain faithful, alive and changed.  

The same thing is repeated, in many different ways.  There is no room for a pre trib fly away for a PARTIAL group of believers.  A house divided cannot stand, God is not a respecter of persons, He changes not....

Judgment starts at the pulpit and I AM NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH, so here I am, yet again, PRAYING no one NEW falls for/from this theory...

Although the OT doesn't speak to a 'pre trib' the OT DOES speak to the ANTI PRE TRIB....and false prophets, and false women prophets in Ez13
 

The Reproof of False Prophets

1  And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; 3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! 4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. 5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD. 6  They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word. 7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

8  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD. 9  And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. 10  Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter: 11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it. 12  Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it? 13  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it. 14  So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 15  Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it; 16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

False Women Prophets

17  Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them, 18  And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you? 19  And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

20  Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. 21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: 23  Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.


AGAIN, noting this because IT IS a direct outcome of the PRE TRIB rapture theory, just like 'can't lose salvation because Jesus did it right' crowd, and all the rest of the doctrines that basically say "Don't worry, don't work, don't study" 

Because you have made sad the heart of the righteous with lies and I not have made him sad and you have strengthened the hands of the wicked so that not he does turn from his way wicked to save his life



And when did the lack of mention of a resurrection make another 'day' come about?  

If one considers the who? as well as the what? then it's clear that the church will not be the object of the wrath of God on earth; the very Lord's Supper itself links a taking out of the world with the church: 'till He come' (1 Corinthians 11.26).

[Locust]

55 minutes ago, farouk said:

If one considers the who? as well as the what? then it's clear that the church will not be the object of the wrath of God on earth; the very Lord's Supper itself links a taking out of the world with the church: 'till He come' (1 Corinthians 11.26).

to use the word church instead of congeation , I really don't like it. there are infact so-called christion organisations  that do go against pure christion design . there are false christions that when push comes to shove God's kingdom will not be their first choice . they call them selves christion ,but are they?? Matthew 7:23 . ....... apparently not.

[NConly]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

If one considers the who? as well as the what? then it's clear that the church will not be the object of the wrath of God on earth; the very Lord's Supper itself links a taking out of the world with the church: 'till He come' (1 Corinthians 11.26).

 There are churches that have gone astray and give good churches a bad name.

other that that I agree.

[farouk]

31 minutes ago, NConly said:

 There are churches that have gone astray and give good churches a bad name.

other that that I agree.

I guess I was referring to the sense of the pilgrim, faithful church, yes.

[DeighAnn]

19 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

The fact you have to specify this, tells me your aware of proper forum etiquette, and are choosing to ignore it. If you want to emphasize certain words, it would be far better, and far more polite to italicize, underline, or change the color of certain words you wish to emphasize then to intentionally choose to do something many take as rude or yelling.

Doesn't explanation itself show I wasn't 'choosing to ignore it' in the pointing out the reason for their use?   I wish you would have understood it that way, as that was my intent.  Please, share which parts you felt still came across as yelling or rude even with the explanation meant to preclude .  The problem for me is, I would rather be my authentic self, rather than what to me, feels like me 'faking' it on some level... hence the explanation 

I did go back and re-read the post a couple times and can't find where it came across as anything other than possibly rebuking in an emphatic manner.  I tried it both ways and didn't find either way as yelling or rude.  Then again, it may be 'the material' itself put forth that would make some people upset by bringing up the actual words of God themselves..    

I look forward to seeing  which capitalized words/parts made your reply necessary so that I can do my best not to repeat.  My apologies.

 

[The_Patriot21]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Doesn't explanation itself show I wasn't 'choosing to ignore it' in the pointing out the reason for their use?   I wish you would have understood it that way, as that was my intent.  Please, share which parts you felt still came across as yelling or rude even with the explanation meant to preclude .  The problem for me is, I would rather be my authentic self, rather than what to me, feels like me 'faking' it on some level... hence the explanation 

I did go back and re-read the post a couple times and can't find where it came across as anything other than possibly rebuking in an emphatic manner.  I tried it both ways and didn't find either way as yelling or rude.  Then again, it may be 'the material' itself put forth that would make some people upset by bringing up the actual words of God themselves..    

I look forward to seeing  which capitalized words/parts made your reply necessary so that I can do my best not to repeat.  My apologies.

 

It has to do more with simply being polite and showing consideration for others. For example, in my home it's perfectly acceptable to eat with your elbows on the table. It doesn't bother me or any of my immediate family. There's adequate room at the table to do so and it doesn't hurt anyone.

But my mom doesn't like elbows on the table, even though her table is as large as mine, and they won't hurt anything there either, but I defer to her rules out of respect for her.

And let's be honest, even with this post, no you didn't use capitals, but you certainly emphasized certain words by boldening certain letters. You could have conveyed your counter argument effectively without doing that, just like you could have conveyed your previous posts effectively without capitals, but you chose to bolden them.

And the reason isnt to try to have a respectful conversation, but to somehow paint me as the bad guy. It's called gaslighting, and in a very passive aggressive way. 

Adding in a little "warning" doesn't change anything, it's like saying "with all due respect" to someone before saying something you know will offend them. One isn't being respectful doing that, they're being passive aggressive.

Common forum etiquette says capitalizing is yelling. So to say "I'm not yelling" then proceed to yell, even though you know what etiquette is, isn't being your authentic self, or at least I hope it isn't, because it's being very rude.

In any case, that's all I have to say on the matter, as I have no interest in side railing this topic further, nor even, really in the topic whatsoever. Just dont want to see another topic shut down because the people within it can't debate in a Christlike and respectful manner.

[Marilyn C]

On 4/26/2025 at 7:13 AM, EddieM said:

 

 

PROOFS FOR A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE

 

 

 

1 – Jesus made a promise to the church in Philadelphia – Jesus said, “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).  In his book, Jesus and the End Times, Ron Rhodes states, “According to the Greek language…the phrase, ‘hour of trial’ is described in Revelation 4-18. It is this timespan that the church is to be kept from itself.”

 

 

 

2 – We are not appointed to wrath – This is a crucial reason the Rapture must occur before the Tribulation. Romans 5:9 says, “We shall be saved from wrath through Him.” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 declares, “And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” And Revelation 3:10 states, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” This reference speaks of a worldwide, global judgment. Clearly, the seven-year Tribulation is the wrath of God. For seven years, twenty-one judgments will befall the whole world. By reading Revelation 4-18, it’s clear that things go from bad to worse as the judgments of God literally tear this world apart. Those caught in the middle will suffer “A day of wrath-a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness” (Zeph. 1:15).

 

 

 

3 – We are covered by the blood – Few could argue that the Tribulation is a time of pain, wrath, God’s judgment, darkness, and destruction over evil, the Antichrist, and the earth. Because of the cross, the church has been cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Therefore, those who have been cleansed by confession of their faith in Jesus are not under condemnation and judgment (Rom. 8:1). Therefore, heaven awaits them, not the wrath of God. Those who genuinely walk and live. It is rather odd that the Rev. 19 passage is the most precise picture of the Second Coming of Christ, yet it does not mention a resurrection? Furthermore, the rapture    will be the most significant event since the resurrection of Jesus, where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated. Yet, there isn't any mention of it here. That seems to be an essential part to leave out. The resurrection of the dead isn't mentioned because it doesn't occur at the Second Coming but 7-years earlier at the rapture.

 

 

 

4 – Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn’t mention a resurrection – This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the Second Coming; yet again, there is no mention of any resurrection.

 

 

 

5 – Two unique pictures are painted – The Old Testament paints two different pictures of the coming Messiah. First, in Isaiah 53:2-10 and Psalm 22:6-8, 11-18, Jesus is the suffering servant. Then in Psalm 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9, 16 He is the reigning King. Looking back at both, one predicted the Messiah's first coming as suffering, dying on the cross for us. The future Second Coming, He comes as the reigning King of Kings. The New Testament also points to two pictures and two different descriptions of Jesus' coming. Under close examination, these two separate events are called the Rapture and the Second Coming.

 

 

 

6 – The known day and the unknown day – Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know, and a day we can know. Look at Matthew 25:13, which declares, "For you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming." So, Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 tells us another story; the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4). Ultimately, he will be destroyed by Jesus at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

 

 

 

9 – Two doors in Heaven – In the Revelation of Jesus Christ chapter 4:1, a door is opened. John the revelator is told, “Come up here.” As John is called to heaven to witness the Tribulation events unfold. This calling to heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up in the Rapture. Then, in Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again. This time the armies of heaven are called out. Similarly, the church comes into play, which had spent the last seven years in heaven. Both doors, at the beginning and end of the book of Revelation, involved Jesus’ return; first, the Rapture, and second, the Second Coming.

 

 

 

10 – Revelation 4:1 John is called into Heaven – The words "Come up here" in Revelation 4:1 strike a similar chord with the Rapture of the Church. A voice out of heaven calls the apostle John to "Come up here," "Come up here.” Immediately he appears in heaven, ready to witness the future. This upward calling seems to be a prophetic reference to the Rapture of the Church.

 

 

 

Similarly, in Revelation 11:12, the familiar phrase, "Come up here," is used to call back to heaven the two witnesses murdered in the middle of the Tribulation. Therefore, these three words could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Revelation 1-3 but is not mentioned again until Revelation 22:17.

 

 

 

11 – The 24 Elders in heaven have their crowns – Once John is called into heaven, he notices that the 24 elders have crowns on their heads (Rev. 4:4-10). According to 2 Timothy 4:8 and 1 Peter 5:4, it is clear that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the Rapture. Furthermore, Luke 14:14 indicates that believers will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous. Therefore, the elders could not have received their crowns unless the resurrection (Rapture) had occurred.

 

 

 

12 – The Holy Ones are already in Heaven – Zechariah 14:5 indicates that the saints are already in heaven. They are “The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses” (Rev. 19:14) at the armies of the end of the Tribulation. Paul speaking to the church in Colossae, told them, “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory” (Col. 3:4). Dressed in fine linen confirms that these are not angels but the righteous saints. Clearly, in order to come out of heaven, the saints had to first go in, indicating a previous Rapture.

 

 

 

Hi Eddie,

Good work there. I agree with most of what you wrote. The one point of difference is

`... saints are already in heaven. They are “The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses” (Rev. 19:14) at the armies of the end of the Tribulation.`

Jesus told us who would come with Him at the end of the trib.

`For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels;...` (Matt. 16: 27)

``...the Son of Man ...when He comes in His glory, & the glory of the Father & of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

You see angels are also described as wearing `pure, bright linen...` (Rev. 15: 6) 

 

[Diaste]

Greetings.

On 4/25/2025 at 3:13 PM, EddieM said:

1 – Jesus made a promise to the church in Philadelphia – Jesus said, “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).  In his book, Jesus and the End Times, Ron Rhodes states, “According to the Greek language…the phrase, ‘hour of trial’ is described in Revelation 4-18. It is this timespan that the church is to be kept from itself.”

The Greek here is 'to set a watch'. Nothing in the text suggests a leaving from one place to go to another or, being taken from one place and brought to another.

On 4/25/2025 at 3:13 PM, EddieM said:

2 – We are not appointed to wrath – This is a crucial reason the Rapture must occur before the Tribulation. Romans 5:9 says, “We shall be saved from wrath through Him.” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 declares, “And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” And Revelation 3:10 states, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” This reference speaks of a worldwide, global judgment. Clearly, the seven-year Tribulation is the wrath of God. For seven years, twenty-one judgments will befall the whole world. By reading Revelation 4-18, it’s clear that things go from bad to worse as the judgments of God literally tear this world apart. Those caught in the middle will suffer “A day of wrath-a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness” (Zeph. 1:15).

This equates wrath and tribulation. They are not the same.

On 4/25/2025 at 3:13 PM, EddieM said:

 

3 – We are covered by the blood – Few could argue that the Tribulation is a time of pain, wrath, God’s judgment, darkness, and destruction over evil, the Antichrist, and the earth. Because of the cross, the church has been cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Therefore, those who have been cleansed by confession of their faith in Jesus are not under condemnation and judgment (Rom. 8:1). Therefore, heaven awaits them, not the wrath of God. Those who genuinely walk and live. It is rather odd that the Rev. 19 passage is the most precise picture of the Second Coming of Christ, yet it does not mention a resurrection? Furthermore, the rapture    will be the most significant event since the resurrection of Jesus, where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated. Yet, there isn't any mention of it here. That seems to be an essential part to leave out. The resurrection of the dead isn't mentioned because it doesn't occur at the Second Coming but 7-years earlier at the rapture.

Wrath and tribulation are not the same. This is also an argument that plays on emotion. 

On 4/25/2025 at 3:13 PM, EddieM said:

4 – Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn’t mention a resurrection – This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the Second Coming; yet again, there is no mention of any resurrection.

Omission isn't proof of anything. Just because you don't see a mention of something where you think it should be mentioned, has no influence on whether or not that something exists. 

 

On 4/25/2025 at 3:13 PM, EddieM said:

 

5 – Two unique pictures are painted – The Old Testament paints two different pictures of the coming Messiah. First, in Isaiah 53:2-10 and Psalm 22:6-8, 11-18, Jesus is the suffering servant. Then in Psalm 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9, 16 He is the reigning King. Looking back at both, one predicted the Messiah's first coming as suffering, dying on the cross for us. The future Second Coming, He comes as the reigning King of Kings. The New Testament also points to two pictures and two different descriptions of Jesus' coming. Under close examination, these two separate events are called the Rapture and the Second Coming.

Non sequitur. 

On 4/25/2025 at 3:13 PM, EddieM said:

 

6 – The known day and the unknown day – Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know, and a day we can know. Look at Matthew 25:13, which declares, "For you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming." So, Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 tells us another story; the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4). Ultimately, he will be destroyed by Jesus at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

No. If 'no one' knows the day and hour, how do the Jews know the 'day'? Where is this 'known day'?

On 4/25/2025 at 3:13 PM, EddieM said:

 

9 – Two doors in Heaven – In the Revelation of Jesus Christ chapter 4:1, a door is opened. John the revelator is told, “Come up here.” As John is called to heaven to witness the Tribulation events unfold. This calling to heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up in the Rapture. Then, in Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again. This time the armies of heaven are called out. Similarly, the church comes into play, which had spent the last seven years in heaven. Both doors, at the beginning and end of the book of Revelation, involved Jesus’ return; first, the Rapture, and second, the Second Coming.

Speculative. Nothing in all scripture equates John with the body of Christ, nothing connects a call to 'come up here' with the gathering. During the gathering it a hostage rescue, a taking by force, not an invitation. 

 

On 4/25/2025 at 3:13 PM, EddieM said:

 

10 – Revelation 4:1 John is called into Heaven – The words "Come up here" in Revelation 4:1 strike a similar chord with the Rapture of the Church. A voice out of heaven calls the apostle John to "Come up here," "Come up here.” Immediately he appears in heaven, ready to witness the future. This upward calling seems to be a prophetic reference to the Rapture of the Church.

Seems to be more wild speculation that reasonable conclusion.

On 4/25/2025 at 3:13 PM, EddieM said:

 

Similarly, in Revelation 11:12, the familiar phrase, "Come up here," is used to call back to heaven the two witnesses murdered in the middle of the Tribulation. Therefore, these three words could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Revelation 1-3 but is not mentioned again until Revelation 22:17.

The word 'church' isn't mentioned in Mark, Luke or John, nor 2 Timothy, 2 Peter, 2-3 John and Jude. So by the logic presented, the church isn't present through large swaths of NT epistles. 

On 4/25/2025 at 3:13 PM, EddieM said:

11 – The 24 Elders in heaven have their crowns – Once John is called into heaven, he notices that the 24 elders have crowns on their heads (Rev. 4:4-10). According to 2 Timothy 4:8 and 1 Peter 5:4, it is clear that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the Rapture. Furthermore, Luke 14:14 indicates that believers will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous. Therefore, the elders could not have received their crowns unless the resurrection (Rapture) had occurred.

If you could, show biblical passages of evidence the elders are the symbolic of the body of believers.

On 4/25/2025 at 3:13 PM, EddieM said:

 

12 – The Holy Ones are already in Heaven – Zechariah 14:5 indicates that the saints are already in heaven. They are “The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses” (Rev. 19:14) at the armies of the end of the Tribulation. Paul speaking to the church in Colossae, told them, “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory” (Col. 3:4). Dressed in fine linen confirms that these are not angels but the righteous saints. Clearly, in order to come out of heaven, the saints had to first go in, indicating a previous Rapture.

The armies here are 'strateuma'. This is a military force. Can you show where the saints are equated with a military force?

Angels also wear white linen. 

 

This all leaves out the clear evidence the only gathering depicted in all scripture is in Rev 7 where everyone in the group has come out from within great tribulation and repeated in Rev 20. 

One would think that if there was a pretrib gathering of billions of the wholly righteous and eminently pure believers, both the living, and the dead from all time, there would be some mention somewhere in canon, or even extra biblical text.

The contrast here is stark and unforgiving. 

[FreeGrace]

On 4/25/2025 at 5:13 PM, EddieM said:

PROOFS FOR A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE1 – Jesus made a promise to the church in Philadelphia – Jesus said, “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).  In his book, Jesus and the End Times, Ron Rhodes states, “According to the Greek language…the phrase, ‘hour of trial’ is described in Revelation 4-18. It is this timespan that the church is to be kept from itself.”

2 – We are not appointed to wrath – This is a crucial reason the Rapture must occur before the Tribulation. Romans 5:9 says, “We shall be saved from wrath through Him.” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 declares, “And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” And Revelation 3:10 states, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” This reference speaks of a worldwide, global judgment. Clearly, the seven-year Tribulation is the wrath of God. For seven years, twenty-one judgments will befall the whole world. By reading Revelation 4-18, it’s clear that things go from bad to worse as the judgments of God literally tear this world apart. Those caught in the middle will suffer “A day of wrath-a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness” (Zeph. 1:15).

3 – We are covered by the blood – Few could argue that the Tribulation is a time of pain, wrath, God’s judgment, darkness, and destruction over evil, the Antichrist, and the earth. Because of the cross, the church has been cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Therefore, those who have been cleansed by confession of their faith in Jesus are not under condemnation and judgment (Rom. 8:1). Therefore, heaven awaits them, not the wrath of God. Those who genuinely walk and live. It is rather odd that the Rev. 19 passage is the most precise picture of the Second Coming of Christ, yet it does not mention a resurrection? Furthermore, the rapture    will be the most significant event since the resurrection of Jesus, where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated. Yet, there isn't any mention of it here. That seems to be an essential part to leave out. The resurrection of the dead isn't mentioned because it doesn't occur at the Second Coming but 7-years earlier at the rapture.

4 – Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn’t mention a resurrection – This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the Second Coming; yet again, there is no mention of any resurrection.

5 – Two unique pictures are painted – The Old Testament paints two different pictures of the coming Messiah. First, in Isaiah 53:2-10 and Psalm 22:6-8, 11-18, Jesus is the suffering servant. Then in Psalm 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9, 16 He is the reigning King. Looking back at both, one predicted the Messiah's first coming as suffering, dying on the cross for us. The future Second Coming, He comes as the reigning King of Kings. The New Testament also points to two pictures and two different descriptions of Jesus' coming. Under close examination, these two separate events are called the Rapture and the Second Coming.

6 – The known day and the unknown day – Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know, and a day we can know. Look at Matthew 25:13, which declares, "For you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming." So, Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 tells us another story; the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4). Ultimately, he will be destroyed by Jesus at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

9 – Two doors in Heaven – In the Revelation of Jesus Christ chapter 4:1, a door is opened. John the revelator is told, “Come up here.” As John is called to heaven to witness the Tribulation events unfold. This calling to heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up in the Rapture. Then, in Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again. This time the armies of heaven are called out. Similarly, the church comes into play, which had spent the last seven years in heaven. Both doors, at the beginning and end of the book of Revelation, involved Jesus’ return; first, the Rapture, and second, the Second Coming.

10 – Revelation 4:1 John is called into Heaven – The words "Come up here" in Revelation 4:1 strike a similar chord with the Rapture of the Church. A voice out of heaven calls the apostle John to "Come up here," "Come up here.” Immediately he appears in heaven, ready to witness the future. This upward calling seems to be a prophetic reference to the Rapture of the Church.

Similarly, in Revelation 11:12, the familiar phrase, "Come up here," is used to call back to heaven the two witnesses murdered in the middle of the Tribulation. Therefore, these three words could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Revelation 1-3 but is not mentioned again until Revelation 22:17.

11 – The 24 Elders in heaven have their crowns – Once John is called into heaven, he notices that the 24 elders have crowns on their heads (Rev. 4:4-10). According to 2 Timothy 4:8 and 1 Peter 5:4, it is clear that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the Rapture. Furthermore, Luke 14:14 indicates that believers will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous. Therefore, the elders could not have received their crowns unless the resurrection (Rapture) had occurred.

12 – The Holy Ones are already in Heaven – Zechariah 14:5 indicates that the saints are already in heaven. They are “The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses” (Rev. 19:14) at the armies of the end of the Tribulation. Paul speaking to the church in Colossae, told them, “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory” (Col. 3:4). Dressed in fine linen confirms that these are not angels but the righteous saints. Clearly, in order to come out of heaven, the saints had to first go in, indicating a previous Rapture.

Here are the facts that are found in the Bible:

1.  There will be a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved:  Dan 12:2, John 5:29, Acts 24:15.

2.  1 Cor 15:23 - context is the resurrection of the saved:  But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Green words:  the order of resurrection

Red words:  Jesus is the FIRST human to receive a glorified imperishable body.  Acts 26:23

Blue words:  the THE resurrection of the saved will occur, which is at the Second Advent, per Heb 9:28 and Rev 20:4-6

Orange words:  every believer from Adam forward.

3.  In addition, Rev 20:4-6 tells us the time between the two resurrections, which will be 1,000 years.  So the resurrection of all believers occurs at the Second Advent, when Jesus returns and rules the nations for the Millennium, and then, after all the surviving mortal unbelievers on earth are fried at the battle of Gog and Magog, all unbelievers will be resurrected back into their mortal bodies to face the GWT judgment and then be cast into the LOF.

4.  Finally, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking resurrrected believers to heaven.  In fact, we have 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Every mention of "the coming of the Lord" is a reference to the Second Advent, per Heb 9:28- so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.