BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[The Light]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, @The Light.

Actually, we've been told a lie that was propagated by Christians influenced by Greek philosophy and theology since the late First Century A.D! 

Eternal life does NOT necessitate CONTINUITY of life. The Bible is replete with examples of people dying, just as they do today. Their bodies lie in the ground or in tombs or sepulchers, and they await the resurrection, just as people we know that have died are awaiting that same resurrection.

Listen carefully to Yeeshuwa`s words in His answer to the Tsduqiym ("Sadducees"):

Matthew 22:23-33 (KJV)

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24 Saying,

"Master, Moses said, 'If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.'

25 "Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!"

33 And when the multitude heard [this], they were astonished at his doctrine.

Now, let's put on our thinking caps a moment: Each of these men, 'AVraahaam, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV DIED and were BURIED all in the same cave near Hebron! So, what was Yeeshuwa` talking about when He said, "as touching the resurrection of the dead?" He was saying that they would all three be RAISED TO LIFE FROM THE DEAD! The wording would be different if He was saying that they were "taken to heaven after they died!" Furthermore, why would that be a proof of the Resurrection? It would be a non sequitur! It wouldn't follow the line of reasoning!

The promise - the "Blessed Hope" - IS the RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD!

And, if we were already IN "eternal bliss" in Heaven, then why would we even NEED our bodies? Why have a "resurrection" at all?! It would be pointless!

Furthermore, many theologians and pastors are begiining to reason that way: Why DO we need a resurrection? And, they are beginning to conclude that one is "resurrected spiritually" when they die and go to Heaven! BUT, they don't get this from the Bible!

I'm sure you have read about the souls under the altar in Revelation 6. They don't have new bodies and will not have new bodies until they are changed.

1 Corinthians 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

However, one should notice that these verses NEVER say WHERE we're going NEXT! They merely promise that we will go wherever HE goes! So, having just come back from "Heaven," where would He go from there? BACK to "Heaven?" That wouldn't be very practical.

Also, we read John 14:1-3 where Yeeshuwa` said,

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

But, one should notice that here, too, He never says that we're going to those "mansions!" He doesn't promise that! He doesn't promise us that we will be "going to Heaven" at all! He's merely telling His disciples what He will be doing while He's gone!

Come on. He goes to prepare a place for us at His Fathers house, that where He is we may be also.

Cut and dried....FACT.

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

However, if He has returned to earth, and we'll be with Him wherever He is, then it truly depends on where He is going next where we will go!

TWICE now, He NEVER said He was taking us back with Him to "Heaven!" That is  ASSUMED by those who believe in the rapture theory as taught by some pastors and evangelists.

Wherever the Lord is that is where we will be. The Lord comes for His bride and takes us to His Fathers house.

Then the Lord returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper and will remain there during the one year wrath of God. 

Then we return with the Lord at Armageddon as part of the armies of heaven.

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

No. In 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, the word "firstfruits" is SINGULAR! And, YEESHUWA` ALONE is that "firstfruits!"

God saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served Baalpeor and would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles become the first harvest.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

After the Church is raptured pretrib, then there has to be first fruits of the second harvest as the fig tree has two harvests. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes.

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Scripture proves that you are in error as there are first fruits for the two harvests of the fig tree.

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

If you're still thinking of the "tribulation" as a "7-year period" or shorter still in the future, then you're not understanding the word translated as "tribulation." The Greek word is "#" or "thilpsis" and is referring to the PRESSURE put upon those who refused to let Him be their King - GOD'S King - in the First Century. They are already IN the "tribulation" and have been so since He pronounced them "desolate" in Matthew 23:38.

Again, your claims are not supported by the Word of God. The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation, and the great tribulation does not begin until the abomination of desolation is set up.

Matthew 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

In the Olivet Discourse, the first occurrence of the Greek word is in Matthew 24:9! Its beginning was 40 years after Yeeshuwa`s death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, when the Temple was destroyed. The Jewish believers left 2-3 years prior to that desecration, as they were warned to do.

Therefore, there's no "pretrib rapture," because we're already IN the tribulation, which is going on 20o0 years!!

As I showed above the tribulation of those days is the great tribulation and it cannot begin until the abomination of desolation is set up.

 

[Retrobyter]

2 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Their FLESH and BLOOD bodies were buried, but they HAD ALREADY been raised up to life/changed/transformed/gone to heaven/under grace through FAITH from the dead. 

Shabbat shalom, @DeighAnn.

No! That's what I'm talking about! This is the new-fangled, gibberish that makes NO SENSE within Scripture! A person doesn't get his or her "spiritual body" at his or her death, when the "seed is planted" in the ground! What even does that mean?! A body made out of the "WIND?!" That's NOT what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians: (I'm going to give the Greek of that paragraph after each paragraph.) 

1 Corinthians 15:35-57 (KJV)

35 But some [man] will say,

"How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

35 ἀλλ’ ἐρεῖ τις,

"Πῶς ἐγείρονται οἱ νεκροί; ποίῳ δὲ σώματι ἔρχονται;"

36 Ἄφρον, σὺ ὃ σπείρεις, οὐ ζωοποιεῖται ἐὰν μὴ ἀποθάνῃ· 37 καὶ ὃ σπείρεις, οὐ τὸ σῶμα τὸ γενησόμενον σπείρεις, ἀλλὰ γυμνὸν κόκκον εἰ τύχοι, σίτου ἤ τινος τῶν λοιπῶν· 38 ὁ δὲ Θεὸς αὐτῷ δίδωσι σῶμα καθὼς ἠθέλησε, καὶ ἑκάστῳ τῶν σπερμάτων τὸ ἴδιον σῶμα.

39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.

39 οὐ πᾶσα σὰρξ ἡ αὐτὴ σάρξ· ἀλλὰ ἄλλη μὲν σὰρξ ἀνθρώπων, ἄλλη δὲ σὰρξ κτηνῶν, ἄλλη δὲ ἰχθύων, ἄλλη δὲ πτηνῶν.

40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. 41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

40 καὶ σώματα ἐπουράνια, καὶ σώματα ἐπίγεια· ἀλλ’ ἑτέρα μὲν ἡ τῶν ἐπουρανίων δόξα, ἑτέρα δὲ ἡ τῶν ἐπιγείων. 41 ἄλλη δόξα ἡλίου, καὶ ἄλλη δόξα σελήνης, καὶ ἄλλη δόξα ἀστέρων· ἀστὴρ γὰρ ἀστέρος διαφέρει ἐν δόξῃ.

42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is RAISED a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

"The first man Adam was made a living soul"; (Genesis 2:7)

the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

42 οὕτω καὶ ἡ ἀνάστασις τῶν νεκρῶν. σπείρεται ἐν φθορᾷ, ἐγείρεται ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ· 43 σπείρεται ἐν ἀτιμίᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δόξῃ· σπείρεται ἐν ἀσθενείᾳ, ἐγείρεται ἐν δυνάμει· 44 σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἘΓΕΊΡΕΤΑΙ σῶμα πνευματικόν. ἔστι σῶμα ψυχικόν, καὶ ἔστι σῶμα πνευματικόν. 45 οὕτω καὶ γέγραπται,

Ἐγένετο ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος Ἀδὰμ εἰς ψυχὴν ζωσαν. (Genesis 2:7)

ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζωοποιοῦν.

46 Howbeit that [was] NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.

46 ἀλλ’ οὐ πρῶτον τὸ πνευματικὸν, ἀλλὰ τὸ ψυχικόν, ἔπειτα τὸ πνευματικόν.

(The body goes into the ground as a "sooma psuchikon," a "body breathing"; it comes out of the ground as a "sooma pneumatikon," a "body blasting!" There is NO "spiritual body" before a person is conceived, and the breathing body comes FIRST!)

47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

47 ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος ἐκ γῆς χοϊκός ὁ δεύτερος ἄνθρωπος ὁ Κύριος ἐξ οὐρανοῦ. 48 οἷος ὁ χοϊκός· τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ χοϊκοί, καὶ οἷος ὁ ἐπουράνιος, τοιοῦτοι καὶ οἱ ἐπουράνιοι· 49 καὶ καθὼς ἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ χοϊκοῦ, φορέσομεν καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ ἐπουρανίου.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

50 Τοῦτο δέ φημι, ἀδελφοί, ὅτι σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα βασιλείαν Θεοῦ κληρονομῆσαι οὐ δύνανται, οὐδὲ ἡ φθορὰ τὴν ἀφθαρσίαν κληρονομεῖ. 

(But, our Lord Yeeshuwa` said after His resurrection that He had "flesh and bones!" - Luke 24:39. And, I believe that Yeeshuwa` will be the FIRST HEIR of God's Kingdom as its representative King, the Son of God, representing His Father to mankind!)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

"Death is swallowed up in victory. (Isaiah 25:8)

55 "O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?" (Hosea 13:14)

56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

51 ἰδοὺ, μυστήριον ὑμῖν λέγω· Πάντες μὲν οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα, 52 ἐν ἀτόμῳ, ἐν ῥιπῇ ὀφθαλμοῦ, ἘΝ ΤΗ͂Ι ἘΣΧΆΤΗΙ ΣΆΛΠΙΓΓΙ· σαλπίσει γάρ, καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐγερθήσονται ἄφθαρτοι, καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀλλαγησόμεθα. 53 δεῖ γὰρ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀφθαρσίαν, καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀθανασίαν. 54 ὅταν δὲ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀφθαρσίαν, καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀθανασίαν, τότε γενήσεται ὁ λόγος ὁ γεγραμμένος,

"Κατεπόθη ὁ θάνατος εἰς νῖκος." (Isaiah 25:8)  

55 "Ποῦ σου, θάνατε, τὸ κέντρον; ποῦ σου, ᾅδη, τὸ νῖκος;" (Hosea 13:14)

56 τὸ δὲ κέντρον τοῦ θανάτου ἡ ἁμαρτία· ἡ δὲ δύναμις τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ νόμος· 57 τῷ δὲ Θεῷ χάρις τῷ διδόντι ἡμῖν τὸ νῖκος διὰ τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

 

 

2 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 so if they had been 'dead and buried' and are DEAD and awaiting 'resurrection' 

then GOD could NOT have been their GOD because He is the God of the LIVING and NOT the DEAD.  

What MOSES showed at the bush was that GOD RAISES THE DEAD, just like Jesus Christ will/did/does.


Go check out the 'tenses' on the verbs and see for yourself

John 5:21 Even as for the Father raises up the dead and gives life, thus also the Son to whom He will gives life.  


There is a raising from the dead 'earth body' that comes when 'falling asleep' and following Him (NEVER SEE DEATH/NEVER DIE)

and there is the raising OUT from THE PLACE OF THE DEAD, the grave, hell, sea, which comes at the return of Christ or the GWTJ for the spiritually dead. 

Come to that understanding and a whole new world opens up...or prove it incorrect and a whole new world will open up for me.  Either way I am a happy girl as I only seek for HIS TRUTH to be known. 

NO! This is NOT true. That's not how it works! We're not "raised to life to go to Heaven when we die!" We die, and we AWAIT the Resurrection at the Trumpet Call, and THEN we are raised to life to go into Eternity AS transformed bodies! THAT'S what Paul said here! And, as I've already said to @The Light,

Eternal life does NOT necessitate CONTINUITY of life. The Bible is replete with examples of people dying, just as they do today. Their bodies lie in the ground or in tombs or sepulchers, and they await the resurrection, just as people we know that have died are awaiting that same resurrection.

Listen carefully to Yeeshuwa`s words in His answer to the Tsduqiym ("Sadducees"):

Matthew 22:23-33 (KJV) 

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24 Saying,

"Master, Moses said, 'If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.'

25 "Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 

31 "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!"

33 And when the multitude heard [this], they were astonished at his doctrine.

Now, let's put on our thinking caps a moment: Each of these men, 'AVraahaam, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV DIED and were BURIED all in the same cave near Hebron! So, what was Yeeshuwa` talking about when He said, "as touching the resurrection of the dead?" He was saying that they would all three be RAISED TO LIFE FROM THE DEAD AT HIS COMING!! The wording would be different if He was saying that they were "taken to heaven after they died!" Furthermore, why would that be a proof of the Resurrection? It would be a non sequitur! It wouldn't follow His line of reasoning!

The promise - the "Blessed Hope" - IS the RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

I'm sure you have read about the souls under the altar in Revelation 6. They don't have new bodies and will not have new bodies until they are changed.

Shalom, @The Light.

No, that's not right! The "souls" - the "air-breathing creatures" - that are at the foot of the altar ARE bodies that have already been resurrected and are BREATHING AGAIN! That's what a "soul" is!

2 hours ago, The Light said:

1 Corinthians 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Beautiful words that are FULL of meaning, and I agree with every last word!

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Come on. He goes to prepare a place for us at His Fathers house, that where He is we may be also.

Cut and dried....FACT.

Nope! He doesn't SAY that "He is going to take us there after we have been received to Himself!" He ONLY promised that we would always be with Him once we've been received! When He returns, He won't be in "Heaven" (the New Jerusalem) anymore! He will be RIGHT HERE ON THIS EARTH!

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Wherever the Lord is that is where we will be. The Lord comes for His bride and takes us to His Fathers house.

No, He doesn't say that at all! He takes us to Himself, as He begins to REIGN IN JERUSALEM, after first purging His Land of the heathen invaders!

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Then the Lord returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper and will remain there during the one year wrath of God. 

Oh, so your take is that it only takes one year - not seven - for God to pour out His wrath. That's fine, as long as one doesn't call it "tribulation." YHWH God DOES pour out His wrath on certain human beings, but not all humanity, AND He does this with "His Strong Right Arm," His Messiah, Yeeshuwa`, who shall be KILLING His enemies, and SUBDUING all of His enemies' nations until He is reigning over all the earth!

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Then we return with the Lord at Armageddon as part of the armies of heaven.

We'll already be here, and Har-Megiddown is PART of God's Wrath!

2 hours ago, The Light said:

God saw the fathers of Israel as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served Baalpeor and would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles become the first harvest.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Just how long ago was this? Do you know? What and where and when was "Ba'al -Peor?" ("בַעַל פְּעוֹר") It was first mentioned in Numbers 25:3ff! 

H1187 בַּעַל פְּעוֹר Baʻal Pᵉʻôwr, bah'-al peh-ore'; from H1168 and H6465; Baal of Peor; Baal-Peor, a Moabitish deity:—Baal-peor.

It means "Lord of the Gap!"

The children of Israel first encountered it when they were marching on the east side of the Dead Sea as they approached the land of Moab (one of the sons of Lot) who dwelt on the east side of the Jordan River, where the Kingdom of Jordan is today. They hadn't even gone into the Land, yet!

It was one of their first challenges, and God had those who committed that atrocity KILLED for their idolatry before they could move on!

It is recounted both here in Hosea 9:10 and in Psalm 106:28.

2 hours ago, The Light said:

After the Church is raptured pretrib, then there has to be first fruits of the second harvest as the fig tree has two harvests. That is why there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes.

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Scripture proves that you are in error as there are first fruits for the two harvests of the fig tree.

Again, your claims are not supported by the Word of God. The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation, and the great tribulation does not begin until the abomination of desolation is set up.

One should be VERY CAREFUL in one's handling of Scripture. While the usage of the word "firstfruits" (Greek: "ἀπαρχὴ") is context-sensitive, this is a misappropriation of Scripture! Here's the passage in question:

Revelation 14:1-5 (KJV)

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (So, He is already back on the earth, on Mount Tsiy'own in Jerusalem!), and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads (and they've already been sealed). 2 And I heard a voice from heaven (Greek: φωνὴν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = "fooneen ek tou ouranou" = "a-voice out of-the sky"), as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder (It's an amplified sound system!): and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth (bought back from the ground). (It's a giant CHOIR with accompaniment!) 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God (Greek: ἀπαρχὴ τῷ θεῷ = "aparchee too Theoo" = "firstfruits to-the God") and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God (which also indicates that it is already on earth, because Yeeshuwa` "returns having received the Kingdom," Luke 19:15, and He doesn't sit upon the throne of His glory until "the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him").

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Matthew 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet (in Daniel 9:26-27), stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This part of the Olivet Discourse has ALREADY HAPPENED back in 66-67 A.D! It was THEN that they fled from Jerusalem, over the mountains of Israel, across the Jordan to regroup in the town of Pella in the Decapolis!

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This part of the Olivet Discourse is still in our future.

2 hours ago, The Light said:

As I showed above the tribulation of those days is the great tribulation and it cannot begin until the abomination of desolation is set up.

No, "the tribulation of those days" is a "GREAT TRIBULATION" BECAUSE it has lasted so long! It started in the past with the escape from Jerusalem before the Temple was destroyed, and it has lasted throughout history until today, and it will continue to happen until our Lord returns. It's been almost 2,000 YEARS of tribulation or pressure! Fortunately, it has not been a relentless pressure, but there have been reprieves through the years, times when the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, could rebuild their numbers a bit. This is what Yeeshuwa` meant by saying,

Matthew 24:22 (KJV)

22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

These are not "the days" of the entire period of pressure, but they are "the days of pressure" WITHIN the entire period that were/are being shortened. So much were they curtailed, that we have names for the individual pressures they faced throughout the last 2,000 years, such as "Roman persecutions," "Inquisitions," "Crusades," "Pogroms," the "Holocaust," and the various terrorist threats down through the years.

Edited May 11 by Retrobyter
to add the Greek word

[Diaste]

On 5/7/2025 at 8:33 AM, The Light said:

How do you possibly conclude this? Making this kind of statement is simply your attempt not to address the facts that I have presented in scripture.

The Jews are the Chosen people of God. Those that bless the Jewish people will be blessed and those that curse the Jewish people will be cursed.

Not even the slightest of chances that I would exalt a group over Israel. I just understand that God says there are two folds, and the Gentiles will be the first fold.

Jew and Israel are not synonymous. 

[Diaste]

On 5/7/2025 at 8:22 AM, The Light said:

No. That is your misconception that you are portraying as my belief.

Are Gentiles that believe that Jesus is the Messiah and follow Him all white, western, dispensationalists? 

That's where the doctrine is most prevalent. 

On 5/7/2025 at 8:22 AM, The Light said:

You are attempting to put words in my mouth saying that I have elevated the grafted Gentiles above Israel. Far from it. Israel is the Chosen Bride. God will keep his promise to His Chosen people.

Yes, Israel. The Israel of God. That includes all in Christ. 

[Diaste]

On 5/7/2025 at 8:12 AM, The Light said:

A Gentile that joins the Catholic church and practices the things of Catholicism is a Catholic.

A Gentile that joins the Baptist church and practices the teachings of the Baptist is a Baptist.

However, a Gentile that attends a synagogue and practices Judaism is NOT a Jew.

Again, that's all religion. Religion has nothing to do with being in Christ, the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. 

[Diaste]

On 5/7/2025 at 7:50 AM, The Light said:

You miss the part where the Jews are still blind. Their blindness will not be removed UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

The Word is clear the Jews are currently blind to the fact that Jesus is the Messiah.

Romans 11:25

King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Israel. Israel, Israel. 

Not Jews. Jew is a religion, not the people of God. 

The find function returns 0/0 results for 'Jew' for Romans chapter 11.

Where are you getting 'Jew'?

[In1]

I believe the book of Revelation is for the most part a book of metaphors.

[Retrobyter]

12 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Romans 11:25

King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Israel. Israel, Israel. 

Not Jews. Jew is a religion, not the people of God. 

The find function returns 0/0 results for 'Jew' for Romans chapter 11.

Where are you getting 'Jew'?

Shalom, @Diaste.

I was agreeing with you until this point. "Jew is a religion, not the people of God" is wrong. A "Jew" is literally a "child of Judah," and Judah was one of the twelve sons of Israel (who was first called Jacob). He is also one of the Messiah's grandfathers, though a son of Israel and a grandson of Isaac and a great grandson of Abraham.

Let's talk about the religion for a moment.... Judaism is a way for the children of Judah to be able to worship YHWH God of the Bible, lacking the Temple and the Temple practices. They keep the reading of the Torah (the Pentateuch) alive and serious students study the Tanakh (the OT) daily! They learn the prophecies about the Messiah (even if they don't yet know who He is), and daily pray for the future blessings to begin. Many are DEDICATED to the austerity and holiness of God! 

Their religion is a "stop-gap" and is a temporary fix until God has intervened and allowed His Messiah to come. They ARE the people of God! They are the people of the Book! They are the Messiah's physical family! There's no undoing that!

Now, their "blindness" is "in part" after all. And, the "blindness" can be lifted for each child of Israel who learns the truth of who the Messiah is and that He's been here before! It's not a "sudden lifting" of the veil; some are learning the truth today! Messianic Judaism is making headway within national Israel, and they are being told who the Messiah truily is! Furthermore, many are coming to God for His righteousness provided by The Son of God, Yeeshuwa`, and are being Justified by God and are born again.

What's important to understand is that "Christians" are not the group of believing Jews and belleving Gentiles. It is the Kingdom of the Messiah that is the collection of believing Jews and Christians (believing Gentiles) who comprise the subjects of His Kingdom. It's a subtle shift, but a necessary shift if one is to understand the Scriptures better. It's not just a matter of semantics.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, In1 said:

I believe the book of Revelation is for the most part a book of metaphors.

Shalom, @In1.

Nope. It's far more than that! A metaphor is saying "thing 1 IS thing 2." A simile is saying "thing 1 is LIKE thing 2." A prime example of each is found in Revelation 21:

The simile is found in verse 2:

Revelation 21:2 (KJV)

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared AS a bride adorned for her husband.

The metaphor is found in verses 9 and 10:

Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife!"

 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ...

While some metaphors and similes are found within the book of Revelation, there is much ... well ... REVELATION, the UNCOVERING of truth and the future realities that we will share! There are several quotations from the "Old Testament" (the Tanakh) that modern Christians seldom recognize.

The reality in both statements above is that the New Jerusalem, which is neither the metaphor nor the simile, is going to be SPECTACULAR AND AWESOME TO SEE! This city will be nearly 1,380 miles long, and wide, and HIGH! It doesn't "represent" anything! It will be our "house," and the whole, New Earth will be our "back yard!"

John (Yochanan) saw this magnificent city descend to the New Earth, and after the city will have settled upon its first foundation of jasper, the twelve gates of pearl will be rolled away from the gateway openings by their attending angels, and the city will be "open for business!" Each of the foundations are foundational levels to the next portion of the city attached to its "wall great and high," as one goes upward toward the throneroom upon the final foundation of amethyst! With the Messiah - the Lamb of God - sitting upon His seat, that throne, the river of the water of life, which flows from the throne of God and of the Lamb, winding its way throughout the city in the median of the massive streets of gold, will begin to flow out the gates to the New Earth in twelve different compass directions! John initially may have noticed that "there was no more sea," but there will certainly be PLENTY of water, and it will be wholesome and pure, flowing energetically out of the gates and onto the New Earth!

The waterfalls and the cascades within the city will be awesome to see, and every home within the city will be well supplied with water and with the fruit from the trees of the species known as the Tree of Life! And, healthy teas can be brewed from the leaves of these trees.

See, one of my pastors in the past gave us this outline of the Bible:

I. What aught to be - Genesis 1, 2
II. What is - Genesis 3
III. How to get from What is to What aught to be - Genesis 4-Revelation 22

While it may seem somewhat simplistic, it is EXTREMELY accurate! When one compares Genesis 1 and 2 to Revelation 21 and 22, one will find many similarities! 

When God first created the Earth and its Sky (the heavens and the earth), God declared it to be "very good." But, He is a PERFECT GOD and CREATOR of all we see, no matter how big our telescopes become! And, He is intricately and intimately involved with His Creation down to the last neutrino and subatomic particle!

Therefore, when a PERFECT GOD declares something to be "very good," it is as perfect an environment as one could hope to see!

However, that perfection was marred with sin after the fall in Genesis 3, and the decay and destruction that follows that sin.

While still quite beautiful after the Flood of Noah's day, we live in an environment now that is far different than that before the Flood, and the layers and layers of death and destruction we find in the rocks are a testimony to the evil that existed before the Flood and the relentless wrath of God upon that world! God was PURGING that environment, washing away the filth!

We now live in a world that is destined for the Fire, which will be just as devastating for this earth. NEVERTHELESS, God will re-create the New Earth from the ashes of the old, and we will have a perfect environment once again.

This is why I say, we don't "go to Heaven";
rather, "Heaven (the New Jerusalem) comes to us!"