BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, Keras said:

Which does not happen until Jesus Returns, at the 6 & 7h Bowls. Rev 16:12-18

Shalom, @Keras.

Really? He waits that long after His sign is seen in the sun, moon, and stars event of the sixth seal, and they've already seen the One from whose face they ran and hid? Why would He appear in the sky and then wait MONTHS to land?!

Consider the words of the Messiah Himself:

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this [man] to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.'

17 "And he said unto him,

"'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.'

18 "And the second came, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.'

19 "And he said likewise to him,

"'Be thou also over five cities.'

20 "And another came, saying,

"'Lord, behold, [here is] thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.'

22 "And he saith unto him,

"'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, [thou] wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?'

24 "And he said unto them that stood by,

"'Take from him the pound, and give [it] to him that hath ten pounds.'

25 "(And they said unto him,

"'Lord, he hath ten pounds!')

26 "'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me!' "

And, don't forget the OT prophecies, such as in Zechariah:

Zechariah 12:1-14 (KJV)

1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel," saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (shall herniate themselves), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day," saith the LORD, "I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart,

"'The inhabitants of Jerusalem [shall be] my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.'

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, [even] in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify [themselves] against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as 'the angel of the LORD' before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,"

"... and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son],
and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

11 "In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart;
the family of the house of David (Hebrew: מִשְׁפַּ֨חַת בֵּית־דָּוִ֤יד) apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan (Hebrew: מִשְׁפַּ֤חַת בֵּית־נָתָן֙) apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi (Hebrew: מִשְׁפַּ֤חַת בֵּית־לֵוִי֙) apart, and their wives apart;
the family of Shimei (Hebrew: מִשְׁפַּ֤חַת הַשִּׁמְעִי֙) apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart."

Again, one will find these names in this order (reversed) in the Messiah's lineage recorded in Luke 3:26-31.

18 hours ago, Keras said:

Those martyred people will be avenged when God sits on the Great White Throne and opens the Book of Life. They will receive immortality, their killers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. 

Oh! Long  before that, my brother! When the Bible talks about the "Judgment Seat of Christ," that's the JOB of an Israeli King! He is Israel's "Supreme Court Justice!" From the moment He starts to reign, He'll be judging His people and those who have ventured into His Land! That, of course, will include the nations who had a part in the battles known in Greek as "Armageddon," or in Hebrew, "Har Megiddown" (which is called "Tel Megiddo" today)! It will be a series of battles that are waged throughout the Land of Yhudah ("Judah") and across the Mountains of Israel, until it ends in the Geey-Yizr'a`eel  ("Valley of Jezreel"), east of Haifa, sitting below Har Megiddown.

18 hours ago, Keras said:

Paul confirms who a true Jew is; Romans 2:29 ALL the rest are fakes and belong to the synagogue of Satan. Rev 2:9b

The belief of a general Jewish redemption is wrong and unbiblical. Over 20 Prophesies tell of the virtual demise of Judah; Luke 20:14-16, Luke 19:27

WE Christians are the peoples who bear the proper fruit, [of the Spirit] Matthew 21:43

That "virtual demise of Judah" was ONLY for that generation! What Paul did was OPEN UP God's family to the Gentiles, while eliminating the "sons of Belial" within the children of Israel.

"Christians" is too nebulous a word today. HOWEVER, it's important to realize that the Jewish population, the children of Yhudah (along with those from other tribes that associated with the Southern Kingdom), even if blinded TEMPORARILY to the Truth, will accept Him as their King with welcome and pride when their eyes are opened to their HERO! One would be wise in NOT writing them off as a nation. They are, after all the LITERAL relatives and family of Yeeshuwa` the Messiah of God.

[Keras]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Your theories do not agree with the Word of God. For starters:

You don't understand Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest.

You don't understand that the believers are raptured to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb when the wrath of God is on the earth.

You don't understand that the 7th seal contains the trumpets and vials of God wrath.

8 hours ago, The Light said:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

!/ The 'harvest' at the Sixth seal, will be the ungodly peoples, totally wiped out from all of the holy Land area. Zephaniah 1:14-18

2/ NOWHERE does the Bible say the believers will be raptured to heaven for the marriage Supper. 

3/ The Seventh Seal simply says that after the Sixth Seal, there will be about a half hour of silence in heaven. This is easily shown to be -about 20 years on earth. Which is about right for all that is Prophesied until the Return. 

Romans 11:25 does not prove a Jewish redemption.

These prove their virtual demise; Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27, Acts 3:23

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, The Light said:

Says you.

The four horsemen on the Apocalypse are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24 and that begins with there being false Christs.

Matthew 24

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Oh boy. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. I sorry you are unable to understand that a BLOOD MOON occurs at a LUNAR ECLIPSE. Two minutes on the internet should prove this FACT. 

Try Googling this "Why does the moon turn red in a lunar eclipse."

Your refusal to recognize FACTS is your downfall.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This had me laughing. Pay no attention to the 7 seven trumpets and 7 vials of God's wrath because Keras says they aren't there.

Apparently not.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Your theories do not agree with the Word of God. For starters:

You don't understand Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest.

You don't understand that the believers are raptured to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb when the wrath of God is on the earth.

You don't understand that the 7th seal contains the trumpets and vials of God wrath.

Shabbat shalom, @The Light.

Just a few points:

First, the "rapture" (harpagenta) will be a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM to get us all to the Middle East on the double! The Messiah is going to be coming back ONCE and His first mission will be to rescue the children of Israel from the neighboring Muslim countries!

Second, the Judgment Seat of Christ (which is claimed to be during the 7 years) will actually occur UPON THE EARTH when the Messiah begins His reign in Jerusalem. As I said before, the JOB of a King of Israel is to be the SUPREME COURT JUDGE! He will be judging THROUGHOUT the Millennium and beyond!

Third, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb occurs in Israel when He returns. He said at the Last Supper,

Matthew 26:29 (KJV)

29 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

But we learn in His FIRST recorded miracle that wine is an INTRICATE PART of a marriage supper!

And, He will be reigning over His Father's Kingdom AFTER He has returned. He aiso said,

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

This happens right before Satan is chained in the Bottomless Pit and He is chained for a thousand years. Furthermore, "glory" is not a place; it's His BRIGHTNESS!

And, He gave us even more details in the parable of the Wheat and the Tares in Matthew 13:

The "wheat" and the "tares" don't happen until He is reigning. He said in His explanation of the parable,

Matthew 13:36-43 (KJV)

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world (the world-sytem of government);
the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world (age);
and the reapers are the angels.

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

And, we should compare this with the Resurrections that Paul talked about in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (resurrected). 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits; (This happened in the First Century.)
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 (This happens at the Second Coming.)
(2) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (This happens at the transition point when the Messiah turns the World Empire over to His Father, and goes on reigning over Israel as subordinate to the Father, after the 1,000 years and the GWTJ prior to the Eternal State of the New Earth and Sky, with the New Jerusalem landing upon the New Earth.)

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 For "he (God the Father) hath put all things under his (the Messiah's) feet. [But when he saith "all things are put under [him," it is] manifest (obvious) that "he" is excepted, which did "put all things under him."}

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (the Messiah, the Son of God), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God the Father) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

And, this in in sync with Psalm 2:1-12:

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed (His Messiah), [saying],

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us!"

4 He that sitteth in the heavens SHALL LAUGH: the Lord (the Messiah) SHALL HAVE THEM IN DERISION (SHALL MAKE FUN OF THEM)! 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set MY king upon my holy hill of Zion! 7 I will declare the decree:

"'the LORD hath said unto me,

"'"Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."'

10 "Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little! Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in HIM!"

This is a FUTURE U.N. MEETING, and THE FATHER AND THE SON crash the party! As the Messiah grows the WORLD EMPIRE of His Father, they will have NO SAY in who can opt out! He is the KING OF KINGS, a WORLD EMPEROR, and He will be a benevolent dictator in that role. When the Messiah is reigning over all the earth, then He turns that Empire over to His Father, but He goes on reigning over Israel, for Gabriel said,

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found FAVOUR with God! 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name 'JESUS.' 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob FOR EVER; and of his kingdom THERE SHALL BE NO END!"

[Retrobyter]

On 5/7/2025 at 11:36 AM, truth7t7 said:

The National Ethnic Jew practicing Judaism is no more God's chosen people than the African, Chinese, or the European, God has no respect for person or National Ethnic Heritage or Religious practice Judaism

Shalom, @truth7t7.

I wonder how it's going to feel to the person who must RETRACT such a statement PUBLICLY in the Messiah's Kingdom! That will probably be VERY HUMILIATING!

[The Light]

6 hours ago, Keras said:

!/ The 'harvest' at the Sixth seal, will be the ungodly peoples, totally wiped out from all of the holy Land area. Zephaniah 1:14-18

The harvest at the 6th seal, which is the second harvest is the gathering from heaven and earth.

All return to heaven for the marriage supper......and are the great multitude in heaven.

6 hours ago, Keras said:

 

2/ NOWHERE does the Bible say the believers will be raptured to heaven for the marriage Supper. 

Well, here are believers that at raptured to heaven and they will be at the marriage supper. BTW, I don't expect you to believe the written Word of God, because if you did, you would see people in heaven for the marriage supper in Revelation 19.

Revelation 14

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

6 hours ago, Keras said:

3/ The Seventh Seal simply says that after the Sixth Seal, there will be about a half hour of silence in heaven. This is easily shown to be -about 20 years on earth. Which is about right for all that is Prophesied until the Return. 

Yeah, I've heard this nonsense before. Do you not understand that the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials are the wrath of God. Do you just pretend that God's wrath doesn't happen? 

6 hours ago, Keras said:

Romans 11:25 does not prove a Jewish redemption.

 

It proven blindness will be removed from part of Israel when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

For some reason many of you do not understand that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. For some strange, unknown reason many seem to think the 70th week is about the Church.

[The Light]

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, @The Light.

Just a few points:

First, the "rapture" (harpagenta) will be a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM to get us all to the Middle East on the double! The Messiah is going to be coming back ONCE and His first mission will be to rescue the children of Israel from the neighboring Muslim countries!

No sir. The raptures, are to get believers to heaven with their new bodies. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath.......Hence the great multitude in heaven during the wrath of God.

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Second, the Judgment Seat of Christ (which is claimed to be during the 7 years) will actually occur UPON THE EARTH when the Messiah begins His reign in Jerusalem. As I said before, the JOB of a King of Israel is to be the SUPREME COURT JUDGE! He will be judging THROUGHOUT the Millennium and beyond!

Great. Believers will be on earth when the armies of heaven follow the Lord to Armageddon after the marriage supper.

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Third, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb occurs in Israel when He returns. He said at the Last Supper,'

You might read Revelation 19.

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

 

And, we should compare this with the Resurrections that Paul talked about in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (resurrected). 23 But every man in his own order:

Every man in His order......first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

The Church already has its first fruits. Then they that are Christs at His coming.......pretribulation rapture.

Then 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes across the earth and then they that are Christs at coming at the 6th seal..........immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

56 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

 

 

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @truth7t7.

I wonder how it's going to feel to the person who must RETRACT such a statement PUBLICLY in the Messiah's Kingdom! That will probably be VERY HUMILIATING!

My statement is a fact, Zionism and Christian Zionism are false teachings, simple, clear, and to the point, there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth "Dream On"!

God is no respector of persons

Romans 2:11KJV

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Edited May 10 by truth7t7

[Keras]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Well, here are believers that at raptured to heaven and they will be at the marriage supper. BTW, I don't expect you to believe the written Word of God, because if you did, you would see people in heaven for the marriage supper in Revelation 19.

Revelation 14

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

You are confused and deceived. 

The people in Rev 19 are dead martyrs, they Spiritually cry out for justice for their killers

Revelation 14 says the Lamb stands on Mt Zion; on earth, proved by verse 2, where the Voice comes from heaven, obviously to the earth, where Jesus selects the 144k. 

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

No sir. The raptures, are to get believers to heaven with their new bodies. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath.......Hence the great multitude in heaven during the wrath of God.

Shabbat shalom, @The Light.

Actually, we've been told a lie that was propagated by Christians influenced by Greek philosophy and theology since the late First Century A.D! 

Eternal life does NOT necessitate CONTINUITY of life. The Bible is replete with examples of people dying, just as they do today. Their bodies lie in the ground or in tombs or sepulchers, and they await the resurrection, just as people we know that have died are awaiting that same resurrection.

Listen carefully to Yeeshuwa`s words in His answer to the Tsduqiym ("Sadducees"):

Matthew 22:23-33 (KJV)

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24 Saying,

"Master, Moses said, 'If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.'

25 "Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her."

29 Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!"

33 And when the multitude heard [this], they were astonished at his doctrine.

Now, let's put on our thinking caps a moment: Each of these men, 'AVraahaam, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV DIED and were BURIED all in the same cave near Hebron! So, what was Yeeshuwa` talking about when He said, "as touching the resurrection of the dead?" He was saying that they would all three be RAISED TO LIFE FROM THE DEAD! The wording would be different if He was saying that they were "taken to heaven after they died!" Furthermore, why would that be a proof of the Resurrection? It would be a non sequitur! It wouldn't follow the line of reasoning!

The promise - the "Blessed Hope" - IS the RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD!

And, if we were already IN "eternal bliss" in Heaven, then why would we even NEED our bodies? Why have a "resurrection" at all?! It would be pointless!

Furthermore, many theologians and pastors are begiining to reason that way: Why DO we need a resurrection? And, they are beginning to conclude that one is "resurrected spiritually" when they die and go to Heaven! BUT, they don't get this from the Bible!

 

Now, let's think about the "rapture." The word itself comes from the Latin translation of a form of the Greek word "harpazoo" in...

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (Greek: ἁρπαγησόμεθα = "harpageesometha" = "we-shall-be-seized," with no direction of "up" in the word, by the way) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And, "So shall we ever be with the Lord." Since YHWH God ("the LORD God")  is infinite and omnipresent, the "Lord" here refers to Yeeshuwa`, since we are ALREADY WITH the LORD God.

However, one should notice that these verses NEVER say WHERE we're going NEXT! They merely promise that we will go wherever HE goes! So, having just come back from "Heaven," where would He go from there? BACK to "Heaven?" That wouldn't be very practical.

Also, we read John 14:1-3 where Yeeshuwa` said,

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

But, one should notice that here, too, He never says that we're going to those "mansions!" He doesn't promise that! He doesn't promise us that we will be "going to Heaven" at all! He's merely telling His disciples what He will be doing while He's gone!

However, if He has returned to earth, and we'll be with Him wherever He is, then it truly depends on where He is going next where we will go!

TWICE now, He NEVER said He was taking us back with Him to "Heaven!" That is  ASSUMED by those who believe in the rapture theory as taught by some pastors and evangelists.

John also wrote the Revelation and Revelation 21 and 22 talk about the city that will descend to the New Earth, called "the New Jerusalem," which is said to be the "Father's Bedouin tent," a "skeenee" in Greek, His HOUSE! WE don't go to IT; IT comes here to US!

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Great. Believers will be on earth when the armies of heaven follow the Lord to Armageddon after the marriage supper.

You might read Revelation 19.

Always do, and I also read Zechariah 12-14 and Isaiah 62:1-66:24! When He returns, He will be eaten up by the zeal of the LORD! He will be ready to dish out a recompense upon His enemies and rescue His people from attempted genocide!

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Every man in His order......first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

The Church already has its first fruits. Then they that are Christs at His coming.......pretribulation rapture.

No. In 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, the word "firstfruits" is SINGULAR! And, YEESHUWA` ALONE is that "firstfruits!"

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Then 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes across the earth and then they that are Christs at coming at the 6th seal..........immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God.

If you're still thinking of the "tribulation" as a "7-year period" or shorter still in the future, then you're not understanding the word translated as "tribulation." The Greek word is "#" or "thilpsis" and is referring to the PRESSURE put upon those who refused to let Him be their King - GOD'S King - in the First Century. They are already IN the "tribulation" and have been so since He pronounced them "desolate" in Matthew 23:38.

In the Olivet Discourse, the first occurrence of the Greek word is in Matthew 24:9! Its beginning was 40 years after Yeeshuwa`s death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, when the Temple was destroyed. The Jewish believers left 2-3 years prior to that desecration, as they were warned to do.

Therefore, there's no "pretrib rapture," because we're already IN the tribulation, which is going on 20o0 years!!

[DeighAnn]

25 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Now, let's put on our thinking caps a moment: Each of these men, 'AVraahaam, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqoV DIED and were BURIED all in the same cave near Hebron! So, what was Yeeshuwa` talking about when He said, "as touching the resurrection of the dead?" He was saying that they would all three be RAISED TO LIFE FROM THE DEAD!

Their FLESH and BLOOD bodies were buried, but they HAD ALREADY been raised up to life/changed/transformed/gone to heaven/under grace through FAITH from the dead. 

 

so if they had been 'dead and buried' and are DEAD and awaiting 'resurrection' 

then GOD could NOT have been their GOD because He is the God of the LIVING and NOT the DEAD.  

What MOSES showed at the bush was that GOD RAISES THE DEAD, just like Jesus Christ will/did/does.


Go check out the 'tenses' on the verbs and see for yourself

John 5:21 Even as for the Father raises up the dead and gives life, thus also the Son to whom He will gives life.  


There is a raising from the dead 'earth body' that comes when 'falling asleep' and following Him (NEVER SEE DEATH/NEVER DIE)

and there is the raising OUT from THE PLACE OF THE DEAD, the grave, hell, sea, which comes at the return of Christ or the GWTJ for the spiritually dead. 

Come to that understanding and a whole new world opens up...or prove it incorrect and a whole new world will open up for me.  Either way I am a happy girl as I only seek for HIS TRUTH to be known.