BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[In1]

29 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @In1.

Nope. It's far more than that! A metaphor is saying "thing 1 IS thing 2." A simile is saying "thing 1 is LIKE thing 2." A prime example of each is found in Revelation 21:

The simile is found in verse 2:

Revelation 21:2 (KJV)

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared AS a bride adorned for her husband.

The metaphor is found in verses 9 and 10:

Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife!"

 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ...

While some metaphors and similes are found within the book of Revelation, there is much ... well ... REVELATION, the UNCOVERING of truth and the future realities that we will share! There are several quotations from the "Old Testament" (the Tanakh) that modern Christians seldom recognize.

The reality in both statements above is that the New Jerusalem, which is neither the metaphor nor the simile, is going to be SPECTACULAR AND AWESOME TO SEE! This city will be nearly 1,380 miles long, and wide, and HIGH! It doesn't "represent" anything! It will be our "house," and the whole, New Earth will be our "back yard!"

John (Yochanan) saw this magnificent city descend to the New Earth, and after the city will have settled upon its first foundation of jasper, the twelve gates of pearl will be rolled away from the gateway openings by their attending angels, and the city will be "open for business!" Each of the foundations are foundational levels to the next portion of the city attached to its "wall great and high," as one goes upward toward the throneroom upon the final foundation of amethyst! With the Messiah - the Lamb of God - sitting upon His seat, that throne, the river of the water of life, which flows from the throne of God and of the Lamb, winding its way throughout the city in the median of the massive streets of gold, will begin to flow out the gates to the New Earth in twelve different compass directions! John initially may have noticed that "there was no more sea," but there will certainly be PLENTY of water, and it will be wholesome and pure, flowing energetically out of the gates and onto the New Earth!

The waterfalls and the cascades within the city will be awesome to see, and every home within the city will be well supplied with water and with the fruit from the trees of the species known as the Tree of Life! And, healthy teas can be brewed from the leaves of these trees.

See, one of my pastors in the past gave us this outline of the Bible:

I. What aught to be - Genesis 1, 2
II. What is - Genesis 3
III. How to get from What is to What aught to be - Genesis 4-Revelation 22

While it may seem somewhat simplistic, it is EXTREMELY accurate! When one compares Genesis 1 and 2 to Revelation 21 and 22, one will find many similarities! 

When God first created the Earth and its Sky (the heavens and the earth), God declared it to be "very good." But, He is a PERFECT GOD and CREATOR of all we see, no matter how big our telescopes become! And, He is intricately and intimately involved with His Creation down to the last neutrino and subatomic particle!

Therefore, when a PERFECT GOD declares something to be "very good," it is as perfect an environment as one could hope to see!

However, that perfection was marred with sin after the fall in Genesis 3, and the decay and destruction that follows that sin.

While still quite beautiful after the Flood of Noah's day, we live in an environment now that is far different than that before the Flood, and the layers and layers of death and destruction we find in the rocks are a testimony to the evil that existed before the Flood and the relentless wrath of God upon that world! God was PURGING that environment, washing away the filth!

We now live in a world that is destined for the Fire, which will be just as devastating for this earth. NEVERTHELESS, God will re-create the New Earth from the ashes of the old, and we will have a perfect environment once again.

This is why I say, we don't "go to Heaven";
rather, "Heaven (the New Jerusalem) comes to us!"

Paul thought that though we can know them, it has never entered into the mind of man the purpose God purposed in himself, and this before the world was ...

The heavenly Jerusalem was also referred to as the mother of us all ... and spoken to by Jesus in a manner that showed a long desired intimacy ...

How do you see the bottomless pit?

Edited May 12 by In1

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, In1 said:

Paul thought that though we can know them, it has never entered into the mind of man the purpose God purposed in himself, and this before the world was ...

Shalom, @In1.

Well, actually Paul said this:

1 Corinthians 2:6-12 (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (mature): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery (a secret), [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written,

"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (Isaiah 64:4).

10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD.

So, through the revelation of God, which He gives through His Spirit, we CAN know them, however our imagination is inferior to the reality God will bring.

 

2 hours ago, In1 said:

The heavenly Jerusalem was also referred to as the mother of us all ... and spoken to by Jesus in a manner that showed a long desired intimacy ...

How do you see the bottomless pit?

No, ... again ALWAYS check the context!

Galatians 4:21-31 (KJV)

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one (Ishmael) by a bondmaid (Hagar, Genesis 16:1-16), the other (Isaac) by a freewoman (Sarah, Genesis 21:1-8). 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage (slavery), which is Agar. (Greek: Ἁγάρ = "Hagar," the rough breathing symbol in front of the Alpha gives the "h" sound) 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Now, it's important to understand the elevations in order to understand that the current Jerusalem IS higher than Mount Sinai: the elevation of Mount Sinai is 7,497 feet, while the elevation of Jerusalem is only 2,474 feet. HOWEVER, the BASE of Mount Sinai is at 5,090 feet! And, Jericho leading up to Jerusalem on the road that our Messiah took to Jerusalem is at -486 feet or 486 feet below sea level! So, the difference is the true height of each:

Mount Sinai: 7,497 - 5,090 = 2,407 feet

Jerusalem: 2,474 - (-486) = 2,960 feet!

The difference being 2960 - 2407 = 553 feet! So, going from the lowest elevation of the Jordan River end of the Dead Sea area to the highest elevation in the area makes the Jerusalem area of the Zion moutain range taller than Mount Sinai.

27 For it is written,

"Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband." (Isaiah 54:1)

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Therefore, this passage of Scripture is comparing old Jerusalem (particularly the Old City) to Mount Sinai, and is NOT talking about the New Jerusalem at all. 

 

As far as the "bottomless pit" is concerned, the Greek wording is found in Revelation 9:1-12 as "ὁ φρέαρ τῆς ἀβύσσου" or "ho frear tees abussou" or "the pit of-the no-bottom," which means "the pit with an unsounded bottom." It was simply too deep to measure. Some take this to mean that it was "in the center of the earth." I, too, believed that way once. However, that would be too great a distance, and it makes better sense to understand this to be a pocket in the earth's crust or just below from which these locusts were said to emerge once the key coordinates were cracked open by a falling meteorite.

The locusts that will emerge are probably an antediluvian species, trapped below the earth's layers of rock tossed during the Flood. Judging from the sound their wings make, they are probably as much bigger than modern locusts as griffinflies were larger than modern dragonflies.

It is into this pit that haSatan will be chained and thrown for a thousand years.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Diaste.

I was agreeing with you until this point. "Jew is a religion, not the people of God" is wrong. A "Jew" is literally a "child of Judah," and Judah was one of the twelve sons of Israel (who was first called Jacob). He is also one of the Messiah's grandfathers, though a son of Israel and a grandson of Isaac and a great grandson of Abraham.

Originally the appellation referred only to those of Judah, later, to the kingdom of Judah after the split, the rest of the tribes were not called yehudi. When the 10 tribes were exiled only the tribes left under the authority of Judah were known as yehudi. So in ancient times not every Israeli was a Jew.

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Let's talk about the religion for a moment.... Judaism is a way for the children of Judah to be able to worship YHWH God of the Bible, lacking the Temple and the Temple practices. They keep the reading of the Torah (the Pentateuch) alive and serious students study the Tanakh (the OT) daily! They learn the prophecies about the Messiah (even if they don't yet know who He is), and daily pray for the future blessings to begin. Many are DEDICATED to the austerity and holiness of God! 

The point is, it's a practice of ritual and liturgy. And one does not need to have Israeli heritage to be a practicing Jew whether orthodox, conservative, reform or reconstructionist. One can convert to Judaism without tribal heritage. 

If you notice in Rev 7 the 144k come from the tribes of Israel. In Rev 14 the criteria for the special status of the 144k is from one of the 12 tribes, virgin and no lies. That would seem a good time to mention their Jewishness, if that was a factor in their redemption and position. 

So one can be Israeli and not be a Jew, be a Jew but not Israeli, but apparently the 144k are only of tribal heritage, virgins and not liars. The Jewish religion has nothing to do with it.

 

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Their religion is a "stop-gap" and is a temporary fix until God has intervened and allowed His Messiah to come. They ARE the people of God! They are the people of the Book! They are the Messiah's physical family! There's no undoing that!

And now you are calling it a religion. That's accurate. Even the Jews themselves know it's a religion. They know, depending on 'Jewishness' where one would fit in the religion, and in the nation of Israel. 

As you point out, it's a religion. The only people that are the people of God are those whose name in found written in the book. Will there be 'Jews'? Of course. But it wasn't Jewishness that got their name written in the book. Your reference to the people of the book is from Islam and the Quran, yes? Not convincing.

In Dan 12, "But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered." The people of Daniel are those whose name is found written in the book, the book of life, not the bible. Here again, even with the long heritage of the Hebrews and Judaism ancestrally for Daniel, Jew and Judaism is not a criteria for the identity of the people of Daniel. 

Holding to the liturgy of ancient Hebrew ways is a slap in the face to Christ. Jesus fulfilled all and released all from the bondage of the law, religion, sin, and death. To continue to practice that which has been done away with for the purposes of reconciliation to God and redemption to eternal life is nothing more than pagan idol worship.

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Now, their "blindness" is "in part" after all. And, the "blindness" can be lifted for each child of Israel who learns the truth of who the Messiah is and that He's been here before! It's not a "sudden lifting" of the veil; some are learning the truth today! Messianic Judaism is making headway within national Israel, and they are being told who the Messiah truily is! Furthermore, many are coming to God for His righteousness provided by The Son of God, Yeeshuwa`, and are being Justified by God and are born again.

And now it's Israel. As I said, Jew and Israel are not synonymous according to scripture. Some group claiming Jewishness for all 10 million people in the holy land does not make it so. 

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

What's important to understand is that "Christians" are not the group of believing Jews and belleving Gentiles. It is the Kingdom of the Messiah that is the collection of believing Jews and Christians (believing Gentiles) who comprise the subjects of His Kingdom. It's a subtle shift, but a necessary shift if one is to understand the Scriptures better. It's not just a matter of semantics.

Correct. And I say it all the time. You appeared to argue against it at first, but now find a bit of common ground. 

From what I can see in the scriptures, Judaism is religion and Jews it's adherents, Israel is a nation of borders; the people of God, those in Christ and of the seed of Abraham are the Israel[Jacob] of God. 

There are really only two ultimate destinies: our name is in the Book, or it isn't. 

 Neither religion, heritage, ethnicity or appellation has any effect on either one. 

[In1]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @In1.

 

 

Edited May 13 by In1
Posted to the wrong person in the wrong thread ... sorry😁

[The Light]

On 5/11/2025 at 1:13 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @The Light.

No, that's not right! The "souls" - the "air-breathing creatures" - that are at the foot of the altar ARE bodies that have already been resurrected and are BREATHING AGAIN! That's what a "soul" is!

Not correct. They do not have their new bodies.

On 5/11/2025 at 1:13 AM, Retrobyter said:

Beautiful words that are FULL of meaning, and I agree with every last word!

Nice but you didn't address the point.

On 5/11/2025 at 1:13 AM, Retrobyter said:

Nope! He doesn't SAY that "He is going to take us there after we have been received to Himself!" He ONLY promised that we would always be with Him once we've been received! When He returns, He won't be in "Heaven" (the New Jerusalem) anymore! He will be RIGHT HERE ON THIS EARTH! 

His FATHER'S HOUSE is in heaven. That is where He will take us, according to the Word of God.

On 5/11/2025 at 1:13 AM, Retrobyter said:

No, He doesn't say that at all! He takes us to Himself, as He begins to REIGN IN JERUSALEM, after first purging His Land of the heathen invaders!

The great multitude is in heaven right after the gathering from heaven and earth. That is where His Father's house is.

On 5/11/2025 at 1:13 AM, Retrobyter said:

Oh, so your take is that it only takes one year - not seven - for God to pour out His wrath. That's fine, as long as one doesn't call it "tribulation." YHWH God DOES pour out His wrath on certain human beings, but not all humanity, AND He does this with "His Strong Right Arm," His Messiah, Yeeshuwa`, who shall be KILLING His enemies, and SUBDUING all of His enemies' nations until He is reigning over all the earth!

The wrath of God is one year according to the Word of God. The great tribulation is not Gods wrath.

On 5/11/2025 at 1:13 AM, Retrobyter said:

We'll already be here, and Har-Megiddown is PART of God's Wrath!

I won't be.

On 5/11/2025 at 1:13 AM, Retrobyter said:

Just how long ago was this? Do you know? What and where and when was "Ba'al -Peor?" ("בַעַל פְּעוֹר") It was first mentioned in Numbers 25:3ff! 

H1187 בַּעַל פְּעוֹר Baʻal Pᵉʻôwr, bah'-al peh-ore'; from H1168 and H6465; Baal of Peor; Baal-Peor, a Moabitish deity:—Baal-peor.

It means "Lord of the Gap!"

Lord of the opening.

On 5/11/2025 at 1:13 AM, Retrobyter said:

 

One should be VERY CAREFUL in one's handling of Scripture. While the usage of the word "firstfruits" (Greek: "ἀπαρχὴ") is context-sensitive, this is a misappropriation of Scripture! 

It seems you do not understand what firstfruits are.

On 5/11/2025 at 1:13 AM, Retrobyter said:

come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him").

This part of the Olivet Discourse has ALREADY HAPPENED back in 66-67 A.D! It was THEN that they fled from Jerusalem, over the mountains of Israel, across the Jordan to regroup in the town of Pella in the Decapolis!

This part of the Olivet Discourse is still in our future.

No, "the tribulation of those days" is a "GREAT TRIBULATION" BECAUSE it has lasted so long! It started in the past with the escape from Jerusalem before the Temple was destroyed, and it has lasted throughout history until today, and it will continue to happen until our Lord returns. It's been almost 2,000 YEARS of tribulation or pressure! Fortunately, it has not been a relentless pressure, but there have been reprieves through the years, times when the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, could rebuild their numbers a bit. This is what Yeeshuwa` meant by saying,

The great tribulation is a future event and will not begin until the AOD is set up in the Temple.

On 5/11/2025 at 1:13 AM, Retrobyter said:

Matthew 24:22 (KJV)

22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

These are not "the days" of the entire period of pressure, but they are "the days of pressure" WITHIN the entire period that were/are being shortened. So much were they curtailed, that we have names for the individual pressures they faced throughout the last 2,000 years, such as "Roman persecutions," "Inquisitions," "Crusades," "Pogroms," the "Holocaust," and the various terrorist threats down through the years.

22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

If the time of the great tribulation is not shortened there would be no flesh raptured alive as they would all be hunted down and killed.

 

[The Light]

On 5/12/2025 at 4:16 AM, Diaste said:

Jew and Israel are not synonymous. 

Gentile, first fold. Those of the 12 tribes across the earth, second fold. The two folds become on one-fold, the Israel of God.

[The Light]

On 5/12/2025 at 4:19 AM, Diaste said:

That's where the doctrine is most prevalent. 

Gentiles are all over the world.

On 5/12/2025 at 4:19 AM, Diaste said:

Yes, Israel. The Israel of God. That includes all in Christ. 

Right. Two folds into one fold.

[The Light]

On 5/12/2025 at 4:21 AM, Diaste said:

Again, that's all religion. Religion has nothing to do with being in Christ, the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. 

And yet you dodged the point. A Gentile that attends and synagogue and practices Judaism is not a Jew.

[In1]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @In1.

Well, actually Paul said this:

1 Corinthians 2:6-12 (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect (mature): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery (a secret), [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written,

"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (Isaiah 64:4).

10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD.

So, through the revelation of God, which He gives through His Spirit, we CAN know them, however our imagination is inferior to the reality God will bring.

 

No, ... again ALWAYS check the context!

Galatians 4:21-31 (KJV)

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one (Ishmael) by a bondmaid (Hagar, Genesis 16:1-16), the other (Isaac) by a freewoman (Sarah, Genesis 21:1-8). 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage (slavery), which is Agar. (Greek: Ἁγάρ = "Hagar," the rough breathing symbol in front of the Alpha gives the "h" sound) 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Now, it's important to understand the elevations in order to understand that the current Jerusalem IS higher than Mount Sinai: the elevation of Mount Sinai is 7,497 feet, while the elevation of Jerusalem is only 2,474 feet. HOWEVER, the BASE of Mount Sinai is at 5,090 feet! And, Jericho leading up to Jerusalem on the road that our Messiah took to Jerusalem is at -486 feet or 486 feet below sea level! So, the difference is the true height of each:

Mount Sinai: 7,497 - 5,090 = 2,407 feet

Jerusalem: 2,474 - (-486) = 2,960 feet!

The difference being 2960 - 2407 = 553 feet! So, going from the lowest elevation of the Jordan River end of the Dead Sea area to the highest elevation in the area makes the Jerusalem area of the Zion moutain range taller than Mount Sinai.

27 For it is written,

"Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband." (Isaiah 54:1)

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Therefore, this passage of Scripture is comparing old Jerusalem (particularly the Old City) to Mount Sinai, and is NOT talking about the New Jerusalem at all. 

 

As far as the "bottomless pit" is concerned, the Greek wording is found in Revelation 9:1-12 as "ὁ φρέαρ τῆς ἀβύσσου" or "ho frear tees abussou" or "the pit of-the no-bottom," which means "the pit with an unsounded bottom." It was simply too deep to measure. Some take this to mean that it was "in the center of the earth." I, too, believed that way once. However, that would be too great a distance, and it makes better sense to understand this to be a pocket in the earth's crust or just below from which these locusts were said to emerge once the key coordinates were cracked open by a falling meteorite.

The locusts that will emerge are probably an antediluvian species, trapped below the earth's layers of rock tossed during the Flood. Judging from the sound their wings make, they are probably as much bigger than modern locusts as griffinflies were larger than modern dragonflies.

It is into this pit that haSatan will be chained and thrown for a thousand years.

I was referring to Paul's " I knew a man", not things that should be for the most part on the obvious side.

Sarah like Eve, or like the woman at the well are pictures of something ... we are not born of Sarah but ... as Paul said ... born of Jerusalem above (not to be confused with a physical location).

The pit is the mouth of an immoral woman  ... 

[The Light]

On 5/12/2025 at 4:27 AM, Diaste said:

Romans 11:25

King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Israel. Israel, Israel. 

Not Jews. Jew is a religion, not the people of God. 

The find function returns 0/0 results for 'Jew' for Romans chapter 11.

Where are you getting 'Jew'?

I'm just wondering if the Germans were hunting and killing a religion in WWII. 

Romans 3, Romans 9, Acts, Galatians, 1 Corinthians