BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[In1]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @In1.

No, perception is SUBJECTIVE! REALITY is OBJECTIVE truth! Don't be "stuck in the Matrix!" "Take the red pill," and see the truth!

You also said,

"... is like ..." again leads to analogy - allegory - and is no longer talking about the reality but the perception! Talk about the PIT not some comparison to something else.

HaSatan (Hebrew for "the Enemy") will LITERALLY be chained and thrown into a DEEP PIT for a THOUSAND years.

One should not be reading God's Word while attempting to find something else He meant by what He said! Instead, just take what He said at face value!

Objective truth requires our perception no less then subjective truth does ... in the sense of Jesus' dialogue about Lazarus ...

Edited May 15 by In1

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, In1 said:

Objective truth requires our perception no less then subjective truth does ... in the sense of Jesus' dialogue about Lazarus ...

Shalom, @In1.

For us to understand it, yes; however, objective truth is truth, whether we perceive it or not! Moses said (sang) of God,

Deuteronomy 32:4 (KJV)

4 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect (complete; mature): for all his ways are judgment: a God of TRUTH and without iniquity, just and right is he."

When Thomas asked, "Lord, we don't know where you're going; so, how can we know the way?" we read,

John 14:6 (KJV)

Jesus saith unto him, 

"I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

How many people have FAILED to perceive this Truth? Does that make it any less the Truth? There ARE such things as ABSOLUTES in His Creation! It's NOT "all relative" nor subjective!

[Keras]

Psalms 68:1-35 Let the Lord arise, let His enemies be scattered. Let those who hate Him be gone! Let the Lord’s enemies perish in His fiery judgement ¹, like wax before a fire and as smoke is dispersed.

       Lord: summon Your strength, use it now as You did for Your people long ago. Rebuke those wild beasts, those proud and arrogant sinners; all those who love violence and war ². All power and strength belongs to the Lord, enthroned on high. Cleanse now Your holy Land and give strength to Your people, we pray.

 The Lord says: I shall bring My enemies together into the place of slaughter, from wherever they are. I will smite them there, their blood will flow out so that you can bathe your feet in it and your dogs will lick it up. Psalms 63, Micah 4:11-12

When the Lord speaks out in mighty thunder ¹, kings and their armies will flee in terror. When the Almighty scatters those evil peoples and clears the holy Land, snow will fall on Mt Zalman ³. 

We sing the praises of our Saviour and Redeemer. He who rides on the clouds, He is our Father and the defender of His righteous people, but those who refuse to acknowledge Him will remain in the desert ⁴.

When the Lord saves His people, there will be thousands of vehicles for them ⁵, as He leads them to safety through the barren desert. The earth will tremble and rain will pour down to replenish the holy Land ⁶. There Your people will settle, for in Your goodness Lord, You provide for the poor and needy.

The procession of all Israel comes into view; into the Holy city. First the singers, then the musicians. The little tribe of Benjamin will lead, with Judah, Zebulon and Naphtali following, marching on their way the Zion’s holy mountain: on to the Temple in Jerusalem.  Kings will bring gifts and envoys will come from far off nations to honour and praise Israel’s God. His Majesty and blessing is over the holy Land , the Lord enthroned in heaven will give strength to His people ⁷.

       Praise be to God!       Ref: REB, CJB. Psalm 68 in a chronological order.

 

1/The Lord’s judgement by fire; an earth directed CME explosion of the sun: Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 66:15-16, Revelation 6:12-17, 2 Peter 3:10

2/ The Islamic peoples who love war and death: Ezekiel 35:5-6, Proverbs 1:16

3/ Mt Zalman – near Shechem. [Nablus] This detail informs us that the Day of the Lord’s wrath will happen during a Northern winter.  Judges 9:48, Matthew 24:20

4/ Then all of the Lord’s people are gathered, all of the faithful Christian peoples from every tribe of Israel from every race, nation and language, are  then ‘passed under the rod of judgement’. Ezekiel 20:35-38…’those who revolt and rebel will not enter the Land’. Deuteronomy 32:36, Isaiah 35:1-10

5/ The Lord will provide transport!  Isaiah 66:20, Psalms 107:1-32, Isaiah 60:1-9

6/ All of the holy Land will be regenerated and become fertile: Ezekiel 36:8-11, Isaiah 35:1-2, Isaiah 66:12, Joel 2:21-26, Amos 9:13-15

7/ Strength and comfort to His people: Isaiah 40:29-31, Jer. 31:21-26, Zech. 10:12

Note: that the Lord remains ‘enthroned in heaven’. The glorious Return comes later. The Lord's true Christian people, from every tribe, [of Israel] every nation, [of the world] every language, [ethnic group] will gather in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9.

WE will build the Temple, Zechariah 6:15.

WE will elect leaders, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11.

WE  will greet Jesus after all that is prophesied takes place, with the shout: Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!

[In1]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @In1.

For us to understand it, yes; however, objective truth is truth, whether we perceive it or not! Moses said (sang) of God,

Deuteronomy 32:4 (KJV)

4 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect (complete; mature): for all his ways are judgment: a God of TRUTH and without iniquity, just and right is he."

When Thomas asked, "Lord, we don't know where you're going; so, how can we know the way?" we read,

John 14:6 (KJV)

Jesus saith unto him, 

"I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

How many people have FAILED to perceive this Truth? Does that make it any less the Truth? There ARE such things as ABSOLUTES in His Creation! It's NOT "all relative" nor subjective!

God is an absolute but that's subjective to me regardless if I actually know what that means or not (which no one actually does to the extent God percieves it) ... our salvation is subjective as is our relationship with God, no matter what form he takes ... 

[Retrobyter]

37 minutes ago, In1 said:

God is an absolute but that's subjective to me regardless if I actually know what that means or not (which no one actually does to the extent God percieves it) ... our salvation is subjective as is our relationship with God, no matter what form he takes ... 

Shalom, @In1.

And, now we get to the heart of the matter. One's "salvation," which I recognize as "God's justification of an individual," had better NOT be "subjective"; that is, dependent upon one's viewpoint in our relationship with God! It must be as REAL as God is REAL or it won't count!

See, some have said that OSAS ("Once Saved, Always Saved") is not true; that is, it cannot be counted on. But, this is poor wording, and therefore, it is "red herring." The correct wording gives the truth and shows how it is possible:

It should be worded, "Once Justified By God, ALWAYS Justified By God." See, it's not up to us! We had nothing to do with our justification; GOD had to step in and justify us, in spite of our sin, by seeing the Messiah Yeeshuwa` AS our "sin," in spite of Him being without sin, and pouring out His Wrath and Judgment upon His Son while He was dying on the cross almost 2,000 years ago. That instance gave Him legal standing to look at each one of us who trust in His Sacrifice to be called "the Righteousness of God," which was found in His Messiah!

This is what Paul was telling us in 2 Corinthians 5:

(Before we look at these verses, it is important to understand what the Greek words "καταλλαγῆς" for "reconciliation," "καταλλάξαντος" for "reconciled," and "καταλλάσσων" for "reconciling" mean.)

G2643 καταλλαγή katallagḗ, kat-al-lag-ay'; from G2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor:
—atonement, reconciliation(-ing).

G2644 καταλλάσσω katallássō, kat-al-las'-so; from G2596 and G236; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
—reconcile.

2 Corinthians 5:9-21 (KJV)

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For WE MUST ALL APPEAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (OF THE MESSIAH); that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore THE TERROR OF THE LORD, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to [answer] them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, [it is] to God: or whether we be sober, [it is] for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ (the Messiah) after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. 17 Therefore IF ANY MAN [BE] IN CHRIST (IN THE MESSIAH), [HE IS] A NEW CREATURE: OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY; BEHOLD, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW. 18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (God has exchanged places with us through Yeeshuwa` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (the service of exchanging places); 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself (God was in His Messiah exchanging places with the world), NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message of exchanging places).

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (you, too, exchange places with God). 21 For he (God the Father) hath made him (the Son of God, the Messiah) [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

THAT is the basis for the Great Exchange! God made the Christ - the Messiah - to be "sin" for us, even though He had no sin of His own for which to suffer. And, in that Sacrifice, when we accept that Sacrifice as our own, asking God for His help, He completes the exchange by making each one of us, as we ask, to be the "Righteousness of God" found within His Messiah, calling the Messiah "OUR sin." 

This is also found in Yeeshuwa`s parable of the Pharisee and the Publican:

Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,

"'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

"'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, THIS MAN (the Publican) went down to his house JUSTIFIED [rather] than the other (the Pharisee): for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Therefore, it must be GOD who does the justifying, not us! We CANNOT justify ourselves, and HE makes the exchange valid and objectively TRUE! If you've not known this before, then please take the time to request God's mercy for yourself, and let HIM justify you. You can even pray the same prayer as the Publican above, and the Great GOD of the UNIVERSE will make the exchange complete in your life, as well.

[In1]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @In1.

And, now we get to the heart of the matter. One's "salvation," which I recognize as "God's justification of an individual," had better NOT be "subjective"; that is, dependent upon one's viewpoint in our relationship with God! It must be as REAL as God is REAL or it won't count!

See, some have said that OSAS ("Once Saved, Always Saved") is not true; that is, it cannot be counted on. But, this is poor wording, and therefore, it is "red herring." The correct wording gives the truth and shows how it is possible:

It should be worded, "Once Justified By God, ALWAYS Justified By God." See, it's not up to us! We had nothing to do with our justification; GOD had to step in and justify us, in spite of our sin, by seeing the Messiah Yeeshuwa` AS our "sin," in spite of Him being without sin, and pouring out His Wrath and Judgment upon His Son while He was dying on the cross almost 2,000 years ago. That instance gave Him legal standing to look at each one of us who trust in His Sacrifice to be called "the Righteousness of God," which was found in His Messiah!

This is what Paul was telling us in 2 Corinthians 5:

(Before we look at these verses, it is important to understand what the Greek words "καταλλαγῆς" for "reconciliation," "καταλλάξαντος" for "reconciled," and "καταλλάσσων" for "reconciling" mean.)

G2643 καταλλαγή katallagḗ, kat-al-lag-ay'; from G2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor:
—atonement, reconciliation(-ing).

G2644 καταλλάσσω katallássō, kat-al-las'-so; from G2596 and G236; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
—reconcile.

2 Corinthians 5:9-21 (KJV)

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For WE MUST ALL APPEAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (OF THE MESSIAH); that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore THE TERROR OF THE LORD, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to [answer] them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, [it is] to God: or whether we be sober, [it is] for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ (the Messiah) after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. 17 Therefore IF ANY MAN [BE] IN CHRIST (IN THE MESSIAH), [HE IS] A NEW CREATURE: OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY; BEHOLD, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW. 18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (God has exchanged places with us through Yeeshuwa` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (the service of exchanging places); 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself (God was in His Messiah exchanging places with the world), NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message of exchanging places).

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (you, too, exchange places with God). 21 For he (God the Father) hath made him (the Son of God, the Messiah) [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

THAT is the basis for the Great Exchange! God made the Christ - the Messiah - to be "sin" for us, even though He had no sin of His own for which to suffer. And, in that Sacrifice, when we accept that Sacrifice as our own, asking God for His help, He completes the exchange by making each one of us, as we ask, to be the "Righteousness of God" found within His Messiah, calling the Messiah "OUR sin." 

This is also found in Yeeshuwa`s parable of the Pharisee and the Publican:

Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,

"'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

"'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, THIS MAN (the Publican) went down to his house JUSTIFIED [rather] than the other (the Pharisee): for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Therefore, it must be GOD who does the justifying, not us! We CANNOT justify ourselves, and HE makes the exchange valid and objectively TRUE! If you've not known this before, then please take the time to request God's mercy for yourself, and let HIM justify you. You can even pray the same prayer as the Publican above, and the Great GOD of the UNIVERSE will make the exchange complete in your life, as well.

To me subjective and objective is the same as works and faith ... you can have sacrifice without faith but never faith without sacrifice.

[Diaste]

On 5/13/2025 at 7:04 AM, The Light said:

I'm just wondering if the Germans were hunting and killing a religion in WWII. 

Romans 3, Romans 9, Acts, Galatians, 1 Corinthians

Your comments on the matter was partial blindness occurs until the fulness of the Gentiles. Paul didn't make a mistake when he said 'Israel'. 

That's what I'm pointing out. Not that the term "Jew" doesn't appear in scripture, but that the term isn't used in the evidence cited. 

[Diaste]

On 5/13/2025 at 6:46 AM, The Light said:

And yet you dodged the point. A Gentile that attends and synagogue and practices Judaism is not a Jew.

Literally any ethnicity can be a Jew. 

Jews come in all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, and nationalities. There are black Jews from Ethiopia, Chinese Jews from Shanghai and Indian Jews. There are Jews from Morocco and Iran, Jews from South America and Oceania. The practices and beliefs held by Jews range from those who openly identify as Orthodox and strictly observe ancient precepts to those that have nothing to do with the religion or culture.

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/who-is-a-jew

[Diaste]

On 5/13/2025 at 6:43 AM, The Light said:

Gentiles are all over the world.

Right. Two folds into one fold.

Nah. Anyone in Christ is the seed of Abraham. That's the important idea. There is no Gentile church. Any Gentile that has come to Christ is of the seed of Abraham and adopted into the natural olive tree that is the Israel of God. 

The idea of two folds into one is already done. The wall of separation from our Father has been torn down by Jesus, there is no more sacrifice required, no religious conversion needed, no more division by religious affiliation or ethnicity.

The only congregation that exists is the elect of God in Jesus Christ. Since Christ ascended there are two groups, those that confess Jesus is Lord and those who do not. 

Mankind requires segregation into groups for any number of purposes; mainly to elevate some and marginalize others. Jesus doesn't do that. 

[Retrobyter]

On 5/16/2025 at 7:55 AM, In1 said:

To me subjective and objective is the same as works and faith ... you can have sacrifice without faith but never faith without sacrifice.

Shalom, @In1.

I guess, the best way to answer this is to note that similarity does NOT mean equality. Not in mathematics, and therefore, not in logic. We can visually see this in geometry, because while two triangles may be similar, having the same angles, they may also not be equal, having proportional sides that are not equal.

I'm going to take a step back and define terms:

subjective | səbˈjektiv | 

adjective 

1 BASED ON OR INFLUENCED BY PERSONAL FEELINGS, TASTES, OR OPINIONS. 
Contrasted with objective: his views are highly subjective | there is always the danger of making a subjective judgment. 
• dependent on the mind or on an individual's perception for its existence. 

2 Grammar relating to or denoting a case of nouns and pronouns used for the subject of a sentence. 

(the subjective) noun Grammar

the subjective case. 

derivatives subjectiveness | səbˈjektəvnəs | noun 

origin 

late Middle English (originally in the sense ‘characteristic of a political subject, submissive’): from Latin subjectivus, from subject- ‘brought under’ (see subject).

 

objective | əbˈjektiv | 

adjective 

1 (of a person or their judgment) NOT INFLUENCED BY PERSONAL FEELINGS OR OPINIONS IN CONSIDERING AND REPRESENTING FACTS. 
Contrasted with subjective: historians try to be objective and impartial. 
• not dependent on the mind for existence; actual: a matter of objective fact. 

2 [attributive] Grammar 

relating to or denoting a case of nouns and pronouns used as the object of a transitive verb or a preposition. 

noun 

1 a thing aimed at or sought; a goal: the system has achieved its objective. 

2 (the objective) Grammar the objective case. 

3 (also objective lens) the lens in a telescope or microscope nearest to the object observed: examine with high power objective. 

derivatives objectiveness | əbˈjektivnəs | noun 

origin 

early 17th century: via French from medieval Latin objectivus, from objectum (see object).

 

As to defining "works" and "faith," we must go back to how the authors of the New Testament used the words in context:

The Greek word translated as "works" is "ἔργα," the plural of "ἔργον":

G2041 ἔργον érgon, er'-gon; from a primary (but obsolete) ἔργω érgō (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:
—deed, doing, labour, work.

These last four words are how the Greek word was translated into English in the KJV.

The Greek word usually translated as "faith" is "πίστις." Sometimes the verb forms (G3982 πείθω to persuade or G4100 πιστεύω to trust; believe) are translated in context to make a noun form:

G4102 πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:
—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

G3982 πείθω peíthō, pi'-tho; a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):
—agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) confident, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

G4100 πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):
—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

I thought to include all the verses that contain both words, but thought better of doing so. I already post replies that are too big.

Suffice it to say that I've done so; and these definitions as given in Strong's Concordance are fairly accurate.

"Works" themselves are "deeds" or "performances" of things we can do. They can be either "good" or "bad/evil," but in Paul's writings, for instance, he is frequently referring to "the perfomance of GOOD deeds" when he said, "works." But, we have Paul saying to Peter,

Galatians 2:15-16 (KJV)

15 "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that A MAN IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW, BUT BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even WE HAVE BELIEVED IN JESUS CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF CHRIST, AND NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW: for by the works of the law shall NO FLESH be justified."

Paul said to Titus, his "own son after the common faith," his pupil, a Greek who was not circumcised,

Titus 3:1-8 (KJV)

1 Put them in mind ...
to be subject to principalities and powers,
to obey magistrates,
to be ready to every good work,
2 To speak evil of no man,
to be no brawlers,

[but] gentle,
shewing all meekness unto all men.
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. 4 But AFTER that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have BELIEVED IN GOD might be careful to maintain GOOD WORKS. These things are good and profitable unto men.

So, I don't really know how you're making the comparison, but the works of the Law are not only the "deeds performed in keeping the Law of God," but may also include the "deeds" by which some think they will be justified, such as "going to church," or "getting baptized," or "taking the Eucharist," or ... !  NONE of those things will justify an individual! GOD must step in and justify a person, and He does it when a person TRUSTS in Him to do it! That's what "faith" is. It's TRUST in God, not only to perform the Sacrifice, but in applying it to an individual!