BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[Montana Marv]

19 minutes ago, Keras said:

Jesus was referring to the New Jerusalem, which will appear after the Millennium and the GWT Judgment. Revelation 21 to 22:1-5m describe that wonderful place,

That's not implied at all.  The us in John 14 is referring to Spirit filled Believers see John 14:16. And Jesus is preparing a place for them the Bride.  This is only referring to the Bride. 

Ye,t the New Jerusalem will have many many more.  The Just of Israel,  The Just of Pre-flood, the Just of Post Flood. Those of the nations who did not follow Satan's last campaign and the Bride.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

13 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Yet, Jesus said in john 14 that He is going to the Father's house to prepare a place for us.  That where I am (the Fathers House),; I will come back and take you to be with me.  You know the way to the place where I am going.  All about the Fathers House.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Shabbat shalom, @Montana Marv.

That's what many assume, but in philosophical, logical discussions, this is called a "non sequitur." That's Latin for "it doesn't necessarily follow." Think of the time line and WHEN Yeeshuwa` will be WHERE:

When He was saying this to His disciples, "where I am" was right there in Jerusalem in the upper room, having just had His passover meal with them. Yhudah ("Judas") had just left to work out his treachery, and Yeeshuwa` was beginning to feel the weight of what was shortly to come.

After He ascended through the clouds into the skies and ariving in the New Jerusalem (His Father's "tent-house") still under construction, "where I am" is indeed in the New Jerusalem, where He said, "I go to prepare a place for you."

But, when He "comes again" and returns to earth, "where I am" will be once again in the Land of Israel, possibly back in Jerusalem.

He DID NOT SAY that He was taking them back to the New Jerusalem with Him! Those words NEVER left His mouth!

So, when He "comes again," THEN "He will receive them unto Himself" and that will be back on the earth again! This process requires their resurrections and their transporting to His presence! If they died anywhere else in the world, as Peter did in Rome and John did on the Isle of Patmos, they would be transported by the "angels" back to meet Him in the air, and go on to Israel from there.

 

 

[Montana Marv]

4 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

After He ascended through the clouds into the skies and ariving in the New Jerusalem (His Father's "tent-house") still under construction, "where I am" is indeed in the New Jerusalem, where He said, "I go to prepare a place for you."

Not Scriptural supported.  All conjecture.

The for you/these are the N.T. Believers, see v, 16; they are given a Counselor, the Spirit of Truth.   2000 years to construct something which God can created by His own mouth.  Say it and it is done.

13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

After He ascended through the clouds into the skies and ariving in the New Jerusalem (His Father's "tent-house") still under construction, "where I am" is indeed in the New Jerusalem, where He said, "I go to prepare a place for you."

Not seen/reported by John when taken into Heaven.

14 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

But, when He "comes again" and returns to earth, "where I am" will be once again in the Land of Israel, possibly back in Jerusalem.

The Temple in Jerusalem  Ezk 43: 1-7.

So what you are implying is the Bride will be in (your view of the unfinished New Jerusalem in Heaven); Then will return with Christ to this earth, and not be in (your unfinished New Jerusalem); Later to dwell in the fully constructed New Jerusalem.

Why would Christ want us His Bride living/dwelling in an unfinished building, when all others enter when it is fully constructed?  That after the 1000 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Keras]

55 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The for you/these are the N.T. Believers, see v, 16; they are given a Counselor, the Spirit of Truth

John 14:1-3 Set your troubled hearts at rest. Trust in God, trust also in Me. There are many dwelling places in My Fathers House…..and if I go and prepare a place for you, I shall come again and take you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.

He has built those "mansions" on earth. The "Father's House" , where the "rooms' are prepared, is a reference to the temple’ of the Lord’ s Christian believers during this Church age.

1Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how you ought to behave yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
God dwells in the church in the person of the Holy Spirit. Before he departed, Jesus said that he must go away (to heaven) so that he could send the Holy Spirit to us.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
In essence, Jesus had to go away to heaven, so that the Holy Spirit could come and dwell in his House on earth, which is now the Church. And as soon as this process began, Jesus 'returned' back to us via the Holy Spirit. If you will read beyond vs 3 in John 14, you will see this is what he meant. The 'mansion' is again mentioned in vs 23, and it's whereabouts is identified. See the word "abode" underlined below in vs 23? It is the same greek word G3438 rendered as "mansions" in vs 2.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

The abode/mansion is inside the believer now. The believer is a part of the church/Father's House. Jesus 'returns' to dwell inside each believer via the Holy Spirit. The many rooms are inside the believers, one room per believer, which corporately add up to be the Father's House, or the Church, as plainly stated in 1Tim 3:15.

The word "mansions" sends the imagination of the modern reader fluttering. Yes, the idea of a large palatial home in Heaven sounds wonderful, but that is not at all what is being promised here. In Christ's time the word "mansion" was used to mean a tent. Like the ones the Roman military would use when they were marching as they moved from place to place. A very small, easy to carry dwelling place. A tarp with a stick really. Not very grand. A "mansion" actually became a unit of measurement based on how far the army could march before they set up this tent at night.

In the time of the translation of the KJV a mansion had come to mean an apartment house. A house with many dwelling places in it. Thinking that they recognized the message being conferred here, that the Father's house has many dwelling places in it, like an apartment house, they interpretatively translated mone to mansions. But really they just butchered the text to now read as if to say "The Father's House" (an apartment house with many rooms) contains many mansions (apartment houses with many rooms).
A mansion as referring to a large palatial single family house is a fairly modern definition. This is classic example of how meanings have changed over the last 400 years. We should ignore ‘mansions’ and substitute the word 'rooms' in vs 2. Then read the rest of the chapter soberly to understand what Jesus is saying. He does a long Q & A on what was said in vs 1- 3 in the rest of the chapter. We don't have to interpret what He says, He plainly tells us the interpretation.  \

[The Light]

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

Not at all. IMO, it's misrepresented. The fulness of the Gentiles is the grafting in to the natural olive tree even as some of the natural branches have been broken off. In that way we stay in the context of salvation in Christ, the proper order and the how those in Christ dwell in the family and congregation of God in Jesus. The fulness of the Gentiles isn't some entity apart from Christ and the natural olive tree.

You just want to talk about the cake, the final result. You want to skip the process of making the cake.

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

 

I agree, some are blinded. In no way does this mean the election is apart from the seed of Abraham, in Christ.

And in no way does that effect the price of eggs.

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

Yes. But it's not clear from scripture just what part of Israel, who it is, exactly when this happens, nor what the fulness of the Gentiles truly means. There is a lot of speculation and personal belief surrounding this, a lot of wishes and hopes, but nothing is clear beyond the fact of the occurrence.

We know the part of Israel is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, as the woman, those in the nation of Israel, flee to her place of protection when the AOD is set up.

And we know the dragon goes after the woman's seed when he can't get to the woman.

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

Okay. Provide the scriptural evidence, a direct statement, of two folds treated with certain distinctions. You say the first fold is the Gentile Church. 

The believers that know Jesus is Messiah are principally Gentiles as the Jews are blinded except for the election. 

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

Please provide scriptural evidence of the first fold, then it's definition as the Gentile Church. 

The Gentiles receive salvation, and the Jews are not saved until they are provoked to jealously.

Romans 11

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

On 6/6/2025 at 2:45 AM, Diaste said:

 

Your conclusion does not follow from what you posted. 

What I see from the verses above that lead to your conclusion is like saying:

Dogs have four legs.

A Labrador is a dog.

Ergo, some Labradors are yellow.

The conclusion does not follow from the premises. 

 

The harvest is past. The Jews see that the Gentiles have been raptured.

The summer is ended. There is no more summer harvest.

The Jews are not saved. They will be provoked to jealously.

Jeremiah 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

[Keras]

Isaiah 45:8 Rain righteousness, you heavens, let the sky above pour it down, let the earth open for it, so that salvation may flourish and righteousness with it. The Lord will do this.     Psalms 50:6, Psalms 140:12-13, Isaiah 1:27

Isaiah 45:9-10  Can we contend with our Maker? Can the pot say to the Potter: What are you making? Or a child ask its parents: What have you brought to birth?   Thus, the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says; Ask Me about things to come, concerning My children, the work of My hands. It is I, who made the earth and created mankind upon it.    Isaiah 64:8, Jeremiah 18:6

Isaiah 45:18-19 The Lord, He who is God, the Maker of the earth; formed as a place to be inhabited says: I did not speak in secret, out of darkness, I did not say to Jacobs descendants: look for Me in vain. I am God, with Me is victory and salvation.    Isaiah 51:13, Isaiah 54:5

Isaiah 45:21-24 Come forward and present your case, who was it that foretold what is to be? Was it not the Lord? There is no God but Me, I am the One who is victorious and able to save. From every corner of the earth, turn to Me and be saved. By Myself, I have sworn My promise of victory and to Me every knee will bow and every tongue will swear, saying: In the Lord alone is righteousness and strength. All who defy Me, will stand ashamed in My presence. 1 Chronicles 29:11, John 3:16

Isaiah 45:20 & 16 Gather together and come near, you survivors of the nations, who in ignorance carry wooden idols in procession, who pray to gods that cannot save. All the idol worshippers will be disgraced, they will perish in their confusion.

2 Kings 17:12, Deuteronomy 32:36-42, Jeremiah 10:1-16, Isaiah 66:17

Isaiah 45:25 & 17 But all Israel’s descendants will be victorious, they will be found righteous and will glory in the Lord. Israel has been delivered by the Lord for all time, they will never be disgraced or put to shame. Deut. 33:1-5, Jer. 3:23

                                                           Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged 

At the end of the Church age, there will, at last be righteousness and justice on earth. The first stage will be amongst His people, who will be gathered soon after the worldwide Lord’s Day of wrath occurs. ‘Gather and come near, you survivors of the nations. All the idol worshippers will perish’. Then all the true followers of the Lord, all Jacob/Israel’s descendants, be they ethnic or grafted in, will enter and live in the Land. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jeremiah 23:3, Zechariah 10:8-10

Later will come the worldwide Kingdom of Jesus on earth, to Him ‘every knee will bow’. Then, finally, will come the ‘New Heavens and New Earth’’. Revelation 21:1-26