BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[Diaste]

On 6/9/2025 at 9:21 AM, The Light said:

Ruth is a Gentile. She is a picture of the Gentile bride of Christ.

Ignoring the evidence. Fine. 

On 6/9/2025 at 9:21 AM, The Light said:

The Jews are the natural branches. The Gentiles are the wild branches. You cannot make a wild branch a natural branch.

Even though Paul says this is exactly what happens, the wild branches are grafted into the natural olive tree. Ever grafted? The grafted branch becomes part of the tree to point you can't tell them apart.

Ignoring the evidence, again. 

[Diaste]

On 6/7/2025 at 10:57 PM, The Light said:

You just want to talk about the cake, the final result. You want to skip the process of making the cake.

I literally gave the recipe. Romans 11 is the complete instruction. 

On 6/7/2025 at 10:57 PM, The Light said:

And in no way does that effect the price of eggs.

We know the part of Israel is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, as the woman, those in the nation of Israel, flee to her place of protection when the AOD is set up.

Yes, but you think the 12 tribes of the 144k are Israeli nationals. They are not. They are in Christ and the seed of Abraham. 

On 6/7/2025 at 10:57 PM, The Light said:

And we know the dragon goes after the woman's seed when he can't get to the woman.

The believers that know Jesus is Messiah are principally Gentiles as the Jews are blinded except for the election. 

No. Israel is blinded in part only. Not Jews, not national Israelis, Israel as in Jacob and the seed of Abraham. 

On 6/7/2025 at 10:57 PM, The Light said:

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The Gentiles receive salvation, and the Jews are not saved until they are provoked to jealously.

Jews, Jews, Jews. Not Jews. That's a false religion. Paul clearly says "ISRAEL".

On 6/7/2025 at 10:57 PM, The Light said:

 

The harvest is past. The Jews see that the Gentiles have been raptured.

False. You'll see. 

On 6/7/2025 at 10:57 PM, The Light said:

The summer is ended. There is no more summer harvest.

The Jews are not saved. They will be provoked to jealously.

Jeremiah 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Misinterpretation to fit a culture, not truth or understanding. 

[Diaste]

On 6/6/2025 at 8:12 AM, The Light said:

Sure.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I have heard this many times as an explanation. But you still can't provide a pretrib scene akin to Rev 7:9-14 that provides the Where?  When? and Who? 

 

On 6/6/2025 at 8:12 AM, The Light said:

It's the last trump that all of the Jews knew about. The Feast of Trumpets, Rosh Hashanah, is celebrated every year. It is a day of blowing trumpets.

There is no last trump on the feast of trumps. It's a memorial of blowing trumpets. The best best you have is Talmudic tradition and that isn't close to divine truth. 

The only last trump in a series of trumps, so named, associated with the end of the age, Jesus return, and the gathering of the saints, is the 7th trump of Revelation.

There is no other. 

On 6/6/2025 at 8:12 AM, The Light said:

The Jews did not know about the last trump or 7th trumpet blown by an angel as John had not written Revelation yet. Additionally, the last trump will be blown at the 6th seal as that is when the harvest occurs. The 7th trumpet, which occurs in the 7th seal, is the end of the wrath of God.

It's amazing you actually think you know what the ancients did not know. How did you arrive at that? Did you raise them from the dead to talk to them or something? 

I know, you think because it wasn't spelled out or no mention made that no man that even lived before John could have ever been given any insight from the Spirit.

So you decide to argue from silence as if that's tantamount to wisdom and understanding. 

 

There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.

 

 

On 6/6/2025 at 8:12 AM, The Light said:

Numbers 29

And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

 

 

By now you should understand Romans 11 and I should have no need to post it.

God's plan is all over the Word of God. 

Here's another example. The Church knows the Lord and He knows us. There are other sheep not of the fold that currently know Jesus as Messiah, He must also bring them as they are the second fold. The second fold cannot happen until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. You can dance around the truth all you want; it does not change the facts.

Facts?! You mean evidence massaged to fit doctrine and dogma? I agree with that. 

On 6/6/2025 at 8:12 AM, The Light said:

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Your timing here is made up. There is zero evidence...

Forget it.

It's been fun but I'm done here.

Blessings. 

[Keras]

On 6/8/2025 at 4:57 PM, The Light said:

The Gentiles receive salvation, and the Jews are not saved until they are provoked to jealously.

As we are plainly told in Ephesians 2:11-18, that ethnicity has nothing to do with Salvation, this idea is nonsense. 

It is quite evident today, that the Jews have no interest in Christianity and apart from a small remnant, they never will.  Isaiah 6:13, Romans 9:27

As for a 'rapture to heaven', of the gentile Christians, that is never said to happen. Explain to us in a rapture scenario; what would happen to the few Jewish Christians?

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't think I was arguing for that in my response to @The Light.

What I see is: "After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

And: they are before the throne of God

For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd

(Rev. 7:17 NASB?)

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

This throne exists in time and space.

Quite true! So does the earth! The throne of the Lamb will be upon this earth, and it will EXTEND into the New Earth after the Judgment.

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is quite similar to throne in Rev 4, mentioned 10 times. So there is a clearly a throne and it has a place. 

I think it a disservice to the text to fail to apply context. Sure ouranos means sky, in context. Do you really think the very much physical throne of our Father is affixed to the place where birds fly? 

No, I think it EXTENDS BEYOND the sky where the birds fly! One must remember that the Greek word "ouranos" (sometimes rendered as its plural, "ouranoi") is a translation of the Hebrew/Aramaic word "shaamaayim"/"shaamaayin," which is a DUAL word, referring to the daytime sky and the NIGHTTIME SKY! Everything that we can see at night is technically the Father's "throne!" He is INFINITE and OMNIPRESENT, not restricted to any physical location. Remember what Shlomoh haMelekh ("Solomon the King) said at the dedication of the Temple:

1 Kings 8:27 (KJV)

27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?"

That's DIFFERENT than the throne of the Lamb! The Lamb's throne is a literal throne upon which the literal, physical person known as Yeeshuwa` haMashiyach ("Jesus the Christ"), the Son of God, will actually reign on behalf of His Father here upon the earth.

Revelation 5:5-10 (KJV)

5 And one of the elders saith unto me,

"Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying,

"Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Revelation 11:15-18 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever."

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

The statement, "the nations were angry," is a reference to Psalm 2:1-12.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 22:1-5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it (the city called the New Jerusalem), and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

And, regarding the timing of their reigns, we can add these passages: (In the first passage, the topic is "resurrection":)

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For "he hath put all things under his feet." [But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that "he" is excepted, which did "put all things under him."] 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

And, one must also remember the Davidic Covenant:

2 Samuel 7:1-17 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when the king [David] sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains!"

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD,

"'"Shalt THOU build ME an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?' "'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that HE will make THEE an house. 

12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I WILL BE HIS FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. If he commit (be twisted into) iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

So, what did Gabriel tell Mary?

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name 'JESUS.' 32 He shall be great, and shall be called THE SON OF THE HIGHEST: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

So, when we put all this together, the conclusion is that God, the Father of Yeeshuwa`, will be the King of the Universe (as He already is). But, when the Son of God, Yeeshuwa` the Messiah (the Anointed One) of God, comes back, He will resurrect His own subjects, and He shall be the physical, Representative King for His Father over the earth - but in STAGES:

First, He shall become the King of the tribe of Yhudah (Judah) - the Jews - and then He will become the King of Israel, all twelve tribes, as He whistles for them to return to the Land. Then, He shall become the King of kings as nations come to Him willingly for His leadership, rulership, wisdom and financial expertise, and some will be annexed unwillingly as He subdues ALL enemies under His feet. At the END of the initial 1,000 years of His Kingdom, haSatan is released, deceives many, and attempts one last battle against God and His Messiah, and his attack is defeated by fire falling from the sky.

At that time, the unjust dead are raised to life to stand trial at the Great White Throne Judgment, and Yeeshuwa` -to whom God gave all judgment - has haSatan and those who followed him thrown into the Lake of Burning Sulfur, and God re-makes the earth and the sky and brings the New Jerusalem down to land upon it. The Son of God will turn over the Empire to His Father, and God the Father will be the King of kings over this earth, but the Messiah Yeeshuwa` will go on being haMelekh Yisraa'eel (the King of Israel) forever!

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

We also see the ones who conquered the beast standing here: "And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name."

Of course that's a simile but it also has a physical attribute of solidity. This isn't so many noble gasses, it's a wide expanse of something solid that is clear as glass. 

There is another "sea" in Scripture: The laver, first in the Tabernacle, and then a larger one in the Temple. This laver was before the veil into the Holy Place, just as the sea of glass that we're seeing here was before the throne.

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Also, John records "Then I saw heaven standing open". This seems to imply heaven was previously closed. That means our ability to view God's abode is supernaturally limited, barred from our perceptions. 

From Revelation 19:11, this verb, ἀνεῳγμένον or aneoogmenon, is a perfect passive participle, usually translated as "having been opened upward" modifying a singular, masculine noun in the accusative case, namely, "τὸν οὐρανὸν" or "ton ouranon" or "the sky." So, that portion should be rendered "And I saw the sky having been opened upward."

It's not a "supernaturally limited" view; it's a PHYSICALLY LIMITED view!

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

John records this as wrath is imminent: "The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up,". Obviously we are not able to see past the veil of the sky, which veil obscures the abode of God and the heavenly host from our view. 

This is an assumption based upon one's own interpretation of what was written, but "the sky receded like a scroll being rolled up" would also describe the PURELY PHYSICAL, rolling effect of the mushroom cloud of a nuclear explosion.

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Just because we aren't given every detail, scripture has more gaps and unknowns than bridges and knowns, doesn't mean we can simply throw away a cautious approach and plunge forward speculating. 

Or, someone who gave up being careful with the text and ASSUMES there are "more gaps and unknowns than bridges and knowns!"

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

And please refrain from this sort of rebuttal: "If one believes that He "abides" anywhere, then he or she has too small a view of God!"

I won't refrain from it. It's the biblical TRUTH! As I quoted above, "the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee," that is, neither the sky nor space can contain Him, and we also learn that David said,

Psalm 139:7-12 (KJV)

7 "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there]. 9 [If] I take the wings of the morning, [and] dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee]."

He is EVERYWHERE, and HE SEES in the darkness as easily as HE SEES in the light! This is why I have no compunction with saying that He is INFINITE and OMNIPRESENT.

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

I was in a cult in my younger days and similar statements were always the club used to beat one back into line. 

Possibly I do have 'too small a view' but using statements that play on emotion or introduce a perceived lack is coercion, not discussion. 

That's not how I use this information. It's really quite simple: Since He is infinite, and He has named all the stars in His nighttime sky, then He is LARGER than all the galaxies in the Universe! As big as ANY of us think He is, He's bigger still! Yet, we also have this information:

Psalm 139:13-16 (KJV)

13 "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest (microscopic) parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect (immature); and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them."

He also said that God RECORDS the future, while we are still in the uterus! He sees and KNOWS what the DNA says about our development! In fact, His knowledge SUPERCEDES what our DNA says! So, He also KNOWS every cell in our body, and He has made the very molecules of substance upon which we survive. So, He is INTIMATELY aware of each substance and how they are put together. Indeed, He CREATED them! So, He is in control of every subatomic particle throughout the Universe! It's no stretch or assumption; it's a logical outcome, based upon these Scriptures!

And, He CARES! He LOVED us before we loved Him! When one realizes this and when he or she is confronted with the magnitude of our sins against Him, one can come to Him for HIS provision of His justification for him or her. He can step in and eradicate our sins and their consequence of eternal death and the punishment of the Lake of Fire. He gives us HOPE - a CONFIDENCE - in our future with Him!

Matthew 10:27-31 (KJV)

27 "What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."

And, since in the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses a thing is established, 

Luke 12:4-7 (KJV)

4 "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? 7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows."

If men place these values on small birds, 1/2 farthing/bird and 2/5 farthing/bird, God knows their TRUE value - value to HIM! And, God places FAR MORE value on a human life!

Psalm 116:1-19 (KJV)

1 I love the LORD (YHWH), because he hath heard my voice [and] my supplications. 2 Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon [him] as long as I live. 3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. 4 Then called I upon the name of the LORD; O LORD, I beseech thee, deliver my soul. 5 Gracious [is] the LORD, and righteous; yea, our God [is] merciful. 6 The LORD preserveth the simple: I was brought low, and he helped me. 7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, [and] my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living. 10 I believed, therefore have I spoken: I was greatly afflicted: 11 I said in my haste, All men [are] liars. 12 What shall I render unto the LORD [for] all his benefits toward me? 13 I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. 14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people. 15 PRECIOUS IN THE SIGHT OF THE LORD [IS] THE DEATH OF HIS SAINTS. 16 O LORD, truly I [am] thy servant; I [am] thy servant, [and] the son of thine handmaid: thou hast loosed my bonds. 17 I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD. 18 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people, 19 In the courts of the LORD'S house, in the midst of thee, O Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD (Hebrew: הַלְלוּ־יָהּ = "halluw-Yaah" = Greek: Ἁλληλουϊά ="Alleelouia" = "ye-be-clear/make-shine/boast-about/rave-about/celebrate-YAH!").

[The Light]

On 6/12/2025 at 4:13 PM, Keras said:

As we are plainly told in Ephesians 2:11-18, that ethnicity has nothing to do with Salvation, this idea is nonsense. 

Don't be ignorant of the fact that after the fullness of the Gentiles come in at the pretribulation rapture part of Israel will have their blindness removed.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

On 6/12/2025 at 4:13 PM, Keras said:

 

It is quite evident today, that the Jews have no interest in Christianity and apart from a small remnant, they never will.  Isaiah 6:13, Romans 9:27

Don't be ignorant of this............

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

On 6/12/2025 at 4:13 PM, Keras said:

As for a 'rapture to heaven', of the gentile Christians, that is never said to happen. Explain to us in a rapture scenario; what would happen to the few Jewish Christians?

You seem to be unaware of God's plan.

Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

[The Light]

On 6/12/2025 at 4:12 AM, Diaste said:

This is not evidence for what you say. You assume the 144k are part of some late in the game gathering from which the white, western, pretrib, dispensational 'church' is immune and previously removed. The 144k are the first taken of the only gathering in existence executed immediately prior to God's wrath.

You are consistent, but in error. All Gentiles are grafted into the Israel of God, they are not a group with their own identity, they are Israel or they are not. 

The point being it's not the separation/replacement. Gentiles are grafted in, not a separate entity. 

The Gentiles know Jesus as Messiah. We are the first fold. The are other sheep not of this for that the Lord must also bring. This is the second fold.

You always jump to the cake and leave out the process of making the cake.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

[The Light]

On 6/12/2025 at 4:22 AM, Diaste said:

I literally gave the recipe. Romans 11 is the complete instruction. 

Here you go.

Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Jeremiah 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

On 6/12/2025 at 4:22 AM, Diaste said:

Yes, but you think the 12 tribes of the 144k are Israeli nationals. They are not. They are in Christ and the seed of Abraham. 

I absolutely DO NOT think the 144,000 are Israeli nationals. I think the 144,000 are of the seed of the woman, Israel, but they have not moved home to Israel. The 144,000 come out of 12 tribes across the earth. The 12 tribes across the earth are where blindness is removed. They are the second fold that will be raptured at the 6th seal.

Those in the nation of Israel will either be killed or they will flee to a place of protection. They will remain on the earth during the 7th seal wrath of God.

On 6/12/2025 at 4:22 AM, Diaste said:

No. Israel is blinded in part only. Not Jews, not national Israelis, Israel as in Jacob and the seed of Abraham. 

Jews, Jews, Jews. Not Jews. That's a false religion. Paul clearly says "ISRAEL".

 

So I guess you are back to there is no male or female.

Look around. This will not happen until after the two folds are joined into one.

Edited 18 hours ago by The Light

[Keras]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

You seem to be unaware of God's plan.

Here is Gods Plan for Judah, the Jewish peoples, by Jeremiah and all the other Prophets confirm the virtual demise of The House of Judah:

There is no scripture that says their 'fulness', as you say; will ever be attained.

Jeremiah Prophesies the Fate of the House of Judah: the Israeli peoples: Psalms 78:68-72 The Lord chose the tribe of Judah, to provide the Kingly line of David; to last forever. Culminating in Jesus.

Jeremiah 2:28-30….For you; Judah have as many gods as you have towns. You are rebels, every one of you. I meted out punishment but you did not learn.

Jeremiah 7: 30-34 The people of Judah have done wrong in My sight… therefore the time is coming when their dead will fill the valley of Topeth….. The whole Land will become deserted.   Hosea 4:3

Jeremiah 9:3 The tongue is their weapon….. Lying, not truth holds sway in the Land….. they care nothing for the Lord.

Jeremiah 8:8-10 How can you say: ‘We are wise, we have the Law of God’, when your scribes, with their lying pens, have falsified it? I shall put the wise to shame, Matthew 11:25, and give the holy Land to new owners.

Jeremiah 12:14-17 The Lord says: All the evil neighbours who have taken over the Holy Land, which I gave to My Israelite peoples; I shall uproot them and also Judah as well. Some will return, provided they learn the Way of My faithful peoples…. But I will destroy any nation who refuses.

Jeremiah 13:19 The towns in the Negev are besieged, there is no relief. All of Judah has been swept away.

Jeremiah 14:10-12 Judah strays from My ways, therefore I have no more pleasure in them. I remember their guilt and will punish them for their sins. Do not pray for them, for I will not listen, or accept them. For I shall make an end to them with My Sword, by famine and plagues.  

Jeremiah 13:23-25 Can a Nubian change his skin, or a leopard his spots? Neither can you:- schooled in evil. I shall scatter you like chaff, Matthew 3:12, your lot and portion  as rebels. Decreed by Me because you have forgotten  Me and trusted in falsehood.                     

Jeremiah 4:18-20 Your own ways have brought on your punishment; your rebellion  is seated deep within you…. At the sound of the Trumpet, the whole Land will go down in ruin.                               

Jeremiah 4:27-28 The Lord says: The whole Land will be desolated , I will clear and cleanse it….. [Deuteronomy 32:43] For I have made know My purpose, I shall not relent or change it.

Jeremiah 23:19-20 See what a scorching wind has gone out from the Lord, a furious whirlwind around the heads of the wicked. The Lords anger cannot be turned aside. In the future, you will understand.

Jeremiah 25:30-35  Prophesy! The Lord roars from on high, from His dwelling place…. against all the inhabitants of the world. He arraigns all mankind and has handed the wicked over to the Sword. Ruin spreads from nation to nation and the dead lie scattered from one end of the earth to the other and there will be no escape for anyone.

Jeremiah 6:11-15  I am full of the anger of the Lord, I must pour it our upon all the people in the Land. Their property will be handed over to others, for all; high and low are out for ill-gotten gain, their prophets and priests are frauds They will fall with a great crash on the Day of My reckoning.

 

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

The Gentiles know Jesus as Messiah. We are the first fold. They are other sheep not of this for that the Lord must also bring. This is the second fold.

You always jump to the cake and leave out the process of making the cake.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Sbalom, @The Light.

You've got it backwards. Some of the Jews, who are the PHYSICAL descendants of Yhudah ("Judah"), one of the twelve tribes of Ya`aqoV/Yisraa'eel ("Jacob/Israel"), will be AMONG the 144,000 AND PART of the multitude that could not be numbered. The 144,000 are a special selection from all twelve tribes of Yisraa'eel who will be a CHOIR and its accompaniment for the Messiah when He returns. They are NOT from the Gentiles at all, and the children of Israel are the "FIRST fold" in the "sheep analogy." The Gentile believers are the "OTHER fold." One must consider WHEN Yeeshuwa` said these words!

John 10:1-42 (KJV)

1 "... Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them."

7 Then said Jesus unto them again,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

11 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of THIS FOLD: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and THERE SHALL BE ONE FOLD, [and] one shepherd.

17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. 20 And many of them said,

"He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?"

21 Others said,

"These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?"

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication (Chanukkah), and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him,

"How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly."

25 Jesus answered them,

"I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. 30 I and [my] Father are one."

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them,

"Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?"

33 The Jews answered him, saying,

"For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God!"

34 Jesus answered them,

"Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "Ye are gods"' (Psalm 82:6 - 6 "I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.") ? 35 If he called them 'gods,' unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, 'Thou blasphemest'; because I said, 'I am the Son of God' ? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him."

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, 40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. 41 And many resorted unto him, and said,

"John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true."

42 And many believed on him there.

He was still some months before his crucifixion. "This fold" refers to the believing children of Israel who followed Him as their Mentor, they being His disciples.

When the woman from Caanan asked for help, Yeeshuwa` said,

Matthew 15:24b (KJV)

24 ... "I am not sent but unto THE LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel."

It wasn't until Kefa ("Cephas"; Peter) was sent to Korneelios ("Cornelius") that the Gentiles were also included en masse. (See Acts chapter 10.) These were the beginning of the "other sheep." (This happened long after the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Yeeshuwa`.)