BUSTED -12 False Theories Refuted

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

So you see a great multitude about the throne, gathered and resurrected, and yet you seem not to understand that all these are in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb...........while the wrath of God occurs on the earth.

I don't 'see' it, it's an immutable fact. I didn't have to read some words and imagine a scenario that fits a personal worldview, it's written in black and white and I accept it as truthful fact. 

Whether I 'understand' what they are there for or not, the point is they are there, in heaven, about the throne, with Jesus, and they were taken out from within GT. 

That's evidence there is certainly a gathering of believers and they are indeed in heaven with God and the Lamb. That was the point.

We could talk about a number of things, I suppose, but I was refuting a specific claim in this instance. 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

Here is the pretribulation rapture in the OT.

Song of Solomon 2

8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

An expression of love, desire, anticipation and affection is a pretrib rapture?

Context is a thing, you know that, right? 

19 hours ago, The Light said:

Why do so many in the west not understand that the great tribulation is about the people of Daniel. It is the time of Jacobs trouble. The Church is already in heaven as we can see in Revelation 5.

Once we understand there are two raptures all the arguments against the pretribulation go up in smoke.

They probably don't understand it because it's made up. 

In the past there was an abrupt distinction between Jew and Gentile, however ostensibly. The people of God know that those who are the people of God, do those things God looks with favor upon. There is but one two part distinction between the people of God and those who are not: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself; one these two hang all the law and the prophets.

When Jesus was relating this to Daniel of course this is what Jesus was referring to, not Jews, a religion, but the people of a pure heart toward God, like Daniel. 

Jesus said to Daniel: "But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered." 

Jesus is making a non-prejudicial statement of identification of just who the people of Daniel are; everyone whose name is written in the book. That's not just Jews, and in fact has nothing to do with religion or ethnicity.

So your conclusion is incorrect. The people of Daniel are the people of God, and the time of Jacob's trouble is the time of trouble for spiritual Israel. 

How would you reconcile your dogma with the concepts spoken of by Jesus and Paul confirming the old religious Jewish ways are over? 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Keras said:

Ezekiel 1:1 and Stephen ; Acts 7:56, both saw Gods Throne while on earth.  You make an unjustifiable assumption to think they must be in heaven.

They were on earth and had a vision of heaven. Heaven wasn't on earth, it was in heaven. It's the same as seeing a distant ship while standing on shore; the ship isn't in shore and you ain't in the boat.

So a direct statement from Jesus about location is an assumption? 

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Keras said:

Ephesians 2:11-18 and Galatians 3:26-29, make it clear that ethnicity is of no value or consequence. Therefore, all of Gods peoples, from every tribe, race, nation and language, when they go to live in the holy Land, will be divided into 12 groups, according to their individual characteristics.  Those characteristics are seen in the meanings of the Hebrew names given to the sons of Jacob and in their careers.

In spite of the text identifying the 144k as ethnic Israelis? 

I'm out.

Good day. 

[Diaste]

On 4/30/2025 at 2:52 PM, Jaydub said:

 

Its a sad thing to see just how differently we all look at scriptures. I think I agree with you on just one of your twelve

That's because people don't listen. Too much pride and rebellious spirit. 

[Jaydub]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's because people don't listen. Too much pride and rebellious spirit. 

Yes, the unwillingness to examine ourselves

[The Light]

17 hours ago, Keras said:

It is purely assumption and guesswork for you to say the great multitude are in heaven. The Bible never says that. 

 

Nah. Biblical FACT.

Revelation 19

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

[The Light]

10 hours ago, Luther said:

Two raptures? Is this like the late bus we had in school?

There is absolute evidence all over scripture that there are two raptures. Most seem to think that the time of Jacobs trouble is about the Church instead of the 12 tribes. Since there are a 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes, you would think more people would realize there is a harvest of the 12 tribes. If the first fruit fruits are pumpkins, the harvest will be pumpkins. The first fruits are of the 12 tribes, so the harvest is of the 12 tribes

Here is another of many proofs that there will be two raptures.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

There are two folds. The first fold is those that Jesus knows, and we know Him. There are other sheep not of this fold that know Jesus as the Messiah. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes at the pretribulation rapture, part of Israel will have their blindness removed.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The two folds are joined into one-fold at the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal. The one-fold is then seen in heaven in Revelation 7.

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

An expression of love, desire, anticipation and affection is a pretrib rapture?

Context is a thing, you know that, right? 

 

Context is everything. When you take things out of context, you are off the trail.

Song of Solomon 2

8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

In the above it shows the Lord coming for His love. He is not seen as He is behind our wall, looking through the windows showing himself through the lattice. Not for everyone to see. He comes in the spring as the dead in Christ rise first.

Song of Solomon 2

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

In the above we see a different time frame. We see the grapes are tender and ripe and give a good smell. It is the end of summer, and the Lord comes for the alive that remain. Again, He comes in secret. He is in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs. Arise, my love, my fair one and come away.

Context is definitely a thing.

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

They probably don't understand it because it's made up. 

In the past there was an abrupt distinction between Jew and Gentile, however ostensibly. 

In the past? There is still an abrupt distinction between Jew and Gentile currently. The Gentiles will be the first fold ......those that He knows and those that hear His voice. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel will have its blindness removed. What will the Jews say?

Jeremiah 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The Jews will realize that they have missed the harvest and will be jealous. It is the Jews that go through the great tribulation. The Church is already in heaven.

Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Context.................

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

When Jesus was relating this to Daniel of course this is what Jesus was referring to, not Jews, a religion, but the people of a pure heart toward God, like Daniel. 

Jesus said to Daniel: "But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered." 

Jesus is making a non-prejudicial statement of identification of just who the people of Daniel are; everyone whose name is written in the book. That's not just Jews, and in fact has nothing to do with religion or ethnicity.

So your conclusion is incorrect. The people of Daniel are the people of God, and the time of Jacob's trouble is the time of trouble for spiritual Israel. 

How would you reconcile your dogma with the concepts spoken of by Jesus and Paul confirming the old religious Jewish ways are over? 

The above verses that I have posted prove that my conclusion is correct. Everyone wants to skip to the one-fold, the Israel of God. But the truth is that there are two folds that are joined into one fold at the gathering from heaven and earth which takes place at the 6th seal. This is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7 some of which come out of great tribulation.

The feasts of God show us there is a grain harvest and a fruit harvest. The Jews will realize that summer is ended, the harvest is past, and they are not saved. Hence they will be on earth during the great tribulation. The people of Daniel, dead and alive will be raised at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal..........seen here.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Bottom line, the Church, the dead in Christ and the alive that remained are in heaven during the great tribulation when the spring and summer harvest occurs. The Jews will be on earth during the great tribulation. Those of the people of Daniel that are written in book of life will be delivered when Jesus come at the 6th seal. Then both Jews and Gentiles, God people, will return to heaven for the marriage supper and will be the great multitude the Israel of God.

The 7th seal is then opened, and the wrath of God will begin.