Christ is Israel

[Jaydub]

On 5/21/2025 at 4:22 PM, Luther said:

Exodus 4:22 KJV
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

The LORD wants Moses to tell Pharaoh that Israel is His firstborn son. We know that Jesus Christ is the "firstborn among many brethren" ( Romans 8:29). And look at this:

Psalm 89:27-29 KJV
Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

[28] My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 

[29] His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

 

Isaiah 49:2-3 KJV
And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 

[3] And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

( Compare with):

Revelation 1:16 KJV
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

We can safely say that God uses the term "Israel" to describe his dear Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Isaiah 41:8 KJV
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

(The seed of Abraham.... sounds familiar):

Galatians 3:29 KJV
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

At this point I would like to draw several conclusions.

1)  A person, place or thing in God's word can have a symbolic, spiritual meaning besides the literal meaning. 

2) There are many different names in scripture that symbolize or point to the Lord Jesus Christ. " Israel" is one of those names.

Q: Since Christ can be synonymous with "Israel", can His followers symbolically be represented as " Israel" as well?

That's what I've seen. Let's compare a few verses:

Isaiah 45:25 KJV
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Isaiah 44:1-3 KJV
Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:

("Jacob my servant"= the Lord Jesus Christ......" Israel, whom I have chosen" = all who are chosen in Christ)

[2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. 

[3] For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

( Compare With):

Acts 2:18 KJV
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

 

Deuteronomy 30:6 KJV
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

( Compare with):

Romans 2:29 KJV
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

...................................

Psalm 89:29 KJV
His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

WHOSE SEED?

Galatians 3:16 KJV
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

.........................................

There are a lot of verses that we can look at. What you will find absent in this study is any promises made to  "literal seed". You won't find those promises anywhere. Simply because of all those born of the 12 tribes of Israel, only a remnant exists that will serve the Lord. 

You're probably familiar with the blessing and the curse in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 30:1-3 KJV
And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

[2] And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 

[3] That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

I truly believe that anyone of the 12 tribes of Israel who was able to " return unto the Lord thy God" are those who have the faith of Christ. They are the ones that are going to be brought back to the "land"..... The eternal land of the kingdom of God.

When the 10 tribes were scattered into all the earth, they mixed in with the nations wherever they went. So together, as in all of humanity, a remnant shall come forth.

 

You can also make the point with the vineyard/vine

Isaiah 5;2

He dug it up and cleared it of stones and planted it with the choicest vines. He built a watchtower in it and cut out a winepress as well. Then he looked for a crop of good grapes, but it yielded only bad fruit.

Hosea 10:1-2

Israel is a luxuriant vine that yields its fruit. The more his fruit increased, the more altars he built;
as his country improved,  he improved his pillars. 2 Their heart is false; now they must bear their guilt. The Lord[a] will break down their altars and destroy their pillars.

Jeremiah 2:21

I had planted you like a choice vine of sound and reliable stock. How then did you turn against me
 into a corrupt, wild vine?
Israel is clearly the vineyard/vine and to answer AdHok question

On 5/22/2025 at 1:07 PM, AdHoc said:

What profit does the student of scripture have to call Christ "Israel". Here is a short history of Israel:
1. While Jacob walked with the Lord, his 12 sons, except for Joseph, were criminals
2. Israel worshiped idols in Egypt
3. Israel carried idols 40 years in the wilderness
4. All except for 2 Israelite men fell in the wilderness because of unbelief
5. Israel crossed the Jordan uncircumcised
6. Israel served God very sporadically in the 800 or so years they occupied the Land
7. Israel went a whoring spiritually
8. Israel walked not in all the law and thus are cursed
9 Israel broke Covenant with God
10. Israel were ejected from the promised Land for their evil
11. Israel called for Caesar as their king when offered Jesus
12. Israel took responsibility for Christ's blood
13. Israel forfeit the kingdom
14. Israel were dispersed among all nations for their evil
15. Israel are concluded in unbelief till the fullness of the Gentiles

John 15:1-2

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

Jesus is using the same words as Jeremiah 2:21 He is the true vine, he is the true Israel and we are grafted in to him

 

 

 

    
   

   

   

   

   
  
    

 

[Orion]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I am surprised that you say  that the Biblical meaning of "ALL" means "only some". Changing the words of the Bible never ends well.

Well that settles the issue of whether thief on the cross was baptized, and for that matter the high priest Caiaphas, and Barabbas, and all the pharisees and saduccees, and Pilate, all the Romans soldiers in Judea, since Mark 1:5 says "there went out unto him (John the baptist) all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."

Context, my friend.  Paul first writes that only a remnant of Israel will be saved, then a few verses later writes that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, in that way all of Israel will be saved. In other words: Paul is saying that the remnant of faithful Jews in Christ and the fullness of faithful Gentiles in Christ are going to be saved. That's what "all" means. 

Sorry I don't have time to answer your other comments. Perhaps tomorrow. 

Peace 

[Anne2]

3 minutes ago, Orion said:

Well that settles the issue of whether thief on the cross was baptized, and for that matter the high priest Caiaphas, and Barabbas, and all the pharisees and saduccees, and Pilate, all the Romans soldiers in Judea, since Mark 1:5 says "there went out unto him (John the baptist) all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."

Yep, all can mean not all.....

Luke 7:29  And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

[Luther]

2 hours ago, Jaydub said:

You can also make the point with the vineyard/vine

Isaiah 5;2

He dug it up and cleared it of stones and planted it with the choicest vines. He built a watchtower in it and cut out a winepress as well. Then he looked for a crop of good grapes, but it yielded only bad fruit.

Hosea 10:1-2

Israel is a luxuriant vine that yields its fruit. The more his fruit increased, the more altars he built;
as his country improved,  he improved his pillars. 2 Their heart is false; now they must bear their guilt. The Lord[a] will break down their altars and destroy their pillars.

Jeremiah 2:21

I had planted you like a choice vine of sound and reliable stock. How then did you turn against me
 into a corrupt, wild vine?
Israel is clearly the vineyard/vine and to answer AdHok question

John 15:1-2

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

Jesus is using the same words as Jeremiah 2:21 He is the true vine, he is the true Israel and we are grafted in to him

 

 

 

    
   

   

   

   

   
  
    

 

Amen and amen. We also have a reference to Jesus being the "heir"to the vineyard in the NT.

Luke 20:13-16 KJV
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

[14] But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. 

[15] So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

[16] He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

The point in all of these parables is that God is showing us in many different illustrations that He is thoroughly finished with national Israel. The remnant is a different story, because Christ came through the seed of the remnant and will soon come for His remnant, "all Israel".

I don't think any of us would be posting so much information regarding the differences between a nation of people and a remnant if there wasn't such a great misunderstanding or dare I say deception going on.

I believe we are at a critical point right now. Either you're going to get sucked in with a man made narrative or keep your focus on what Christ is going to do for His church, very soon.

 

Edited May 26 by Luther
changed a word

[Luther]

On 5/23/2025 at 3:24 PM, Orion said:

God's land promise to Israel has already been fulfilled (Joshua 21:43-45; 1 Kings 8:56).  This inheritance of the land is a type of what God has in store for the future. This type is a prophetic picture of the good things God promised to bring, which is fulfilled in Christ. 

The old Mosaic covenant is done away with by the new covenant made effective by the death burial and resurrection of Yeshua.  No one has ever been, nor will anyone ever be, saved by the works of the law. 

Daniel's 12:2 people are all peoples of every ethnicity that have/had faith in the Genesis 3:15 Seed, which is fulfilled by the New Covenant in Christ. 

The remnant of Israel mentioned in 1 Kings 19:18 and Romans 9:24-27 are all those that have/had faith in the Genesis 3:15 Seed, which is Yeshua.  

Because Yeshua is the promises Seed of Genesis 3:15, He is not just the Messiah to the Jews, He is the Messiah and Light to the entire World. 

Peace

Joshua 21:43-45 KJV
And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

[44] And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

[45] There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

"all came to pass". I believe God's Word, not man.

[Anne2]

On 5/24/2025 at 7:31 PM, Luther said:

You said: " Be honest. If it is "Thy Kingdom COME" then the King will live on earth. Since he is King of Israel, what are the chances that He will live in Jerusalem? And if Jerusalem is where the Great King will live, then the Old Testament with all its hundreds of prophecies IS LITERAL "

Wouldn't you think that the Old Testament prophecies lead to the New Jerusalem? The heavenly Jerusalem? Yes, Christ will be King over all the Earth.... A new Earth. No more sin. New bodies for the true believers. I don't know what we're going to do and what time is going to be like but one thing's for sure. We will be all focused on Jesus Christ. And worshiping Him.

A PRIEST on his throne

Zech 6:12  And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: {grow … : or, branch up from under him }
13  Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Rules as priest, and king ,,,, Our Melchizedek

David and the priests the Levites shall never be in want for a man to sit on throne, or to offer sacrifices.

Jer 33:20  Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;

His covenant with (Both) David, and his covenant with Levi

Jer 33:21  Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22  As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Two families Judah and Levi

23  Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,
24  Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

5  My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

Mal 2:4  And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5  My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

What covenant did these Families share in common?

Nu 18:19  All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.
20 ¶  And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.

2 chron 13:5  Ought ye not to know that the LORD God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, even to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt

Num 25:11  Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. {for … : Heb. with my zeal }
12  Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
13  And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.
 

Edited May 26 by Anne2

[Anne2]

6 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

A PRIEST on his throne

Zech 6:12  And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: {grow … : or, branch up from under him }
13  Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Rules as priest, and king ,,,, Our Melchizedek

David and the priests the Levites shall never be in want for a man to sit on throne, or to offer sacrifices.

Jer 33:20  Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;

His covenant with (Both) David, and his covenant with Levi

Jer 33:21  Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22  As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Two families Judah and Levi

23  Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,
24  Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

5  My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

Mal 2:4  And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5  My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

What covenant did these Families share in common?

Nu 18:19  All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.
20 ¶  And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.

2 chron 13:5  Ought ye not to know that the LORD God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, even to him and to his sons by

Num 25:11  Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. {for … : Heb. with my zeal }
12  Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
13  And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

It is not earthly. There are already priests in the Order of Aaron for the worldly tabernacle

 

 

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Hello AdHoc, both are ratified in blood

Genesis 15 animals

Genesis 17 circumcision

Moses wife...

Ex 4:25  Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. {sharp … : or, knife } {cast … : Heb. made it touch }
Ex 4:26  So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
 

Not so.... Genesis 15 tells you he made covenant (blood of animals)

The women are an allegory for the covenants. Two sons

Deut 5:2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

It tells us right here.......
Ge 15:18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Ge 21:10  Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son.

Covenant as a will of inheritance

Heb 9:16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. {be: or, be brought in }
Heb 9:17  For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Some things to point out.

Gen 25:5  And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

This is gifting, while he yet lived. It is not an inheritance..
6  But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

The blessing of his birthright, come into effect...
11 And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac; and Isaac dwelt by the well Lahairoi.
 

Genesi 17 is where you find these things.....

The women are an allegory for the covenants. Two sons

Ga 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Years later God gives Abraham the covenant of circumcision

A father of many nations

1  And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. {perfect: or, upright, or, sincere }
2  And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3  And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 ¶  As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations }
5  Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

It is a covenant promising royal seed

6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 ¶  And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

The woman Sarah an allegory for the royal covenant....Nations and kings....

15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. {Sarah: that is Princess }
16  And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

The woman Hagar an allegory of sinai
Ishmael, a great nation, twelve princes.

17  Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18  And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19  And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20  And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21  But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Moses never Gave them Kings, thou it was allowed.

princes

Nu 1:16  These were the renowned of the congregation, princes of the tribes of their fathers, heads of thousands in Israel.
Nu 1:44  These are those that were numbered, which Moses and Aaron numbered, and the princes of Israel, being twelve men: each one was for the house of his fathers.
 

If they put a king over, just had to be from one of the twelve tribes.  But kings are not given by the law.

Moses gave a priesthood, a kingdom of priests. Which tribe Levi, had no inheritance in the land with Israel.

I appreciate your view. But every scripture you ave concerning a Covenant with Abraham mentioned one Covenant. So it is throughout the Bible. The second Covenant you allude to, and which is typified in Galatians by Hagar, is the Covenant of LAW given at Horeb ad ratified by Moses with the blood in Exodus 24:7-9. The second Covenant was not made with Abraham. It is made with ISRAEL (Ex.34:27). Abraham is a gentile - a Syrian.

Circumcision is not a Covenant. It is Abraham and his seed's PART in the Covenant of Promise. It is a "sign" (Rom.4:11) from which we draw the word "signature". It is the condition required to be a legal party to this Covenant of Promise. Galatians 3:29 says that we are heirs as well, but circumcision is replaced by Baptism (Col.2:10-12). These two Covenants were given 430 years apart.

The reason why a difference is made between these Covenants is that they BOTH address "THE land". The Covenant with Abraham Promises the Land UNCONDITIONALLY. It's only quirk was that the main character, Abraham, would receive it only after he was resurrected. The second Covenant had, as its conditions, the Law. And because all men except Jesus could not keep the Law, this Covenant threatened EJECTION from the Land (Lev.26, Deut.28). And so, when Israel had been ejected from Canaan, it suddenly became a matter of God's honor. In one Covenant Jehovah PROMISES the Land and in another Jehovah will kick you out.

This seeming conflict is the logical ed of the case that Paul builds in Romans. He concludes ALL men under sin and in need of Christ. The Jew though, rears up and calls upon the Covenant of Law. Paul squashes this argument in Romans 7 and shows that the Law calls for death. The solution for Jew and Gentile is Romans Chapter 8. But everybody knows that the Jew will not go this way. The conflict that God set in motion by one Covenant putting Israel INTO the Land and another Covenant that kicks them out is settled in Romans 9 to 11. It takes Paul three whole Chapters to build the case for mercy with Israel DESPITE their UNBELIEF.

Because our Lord Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world (1st Jn.2:2), God can judicially advance mercy to "whom He will" (9:15, 18). For eternal life God sets a condition; Believe in Jesus and confess Him. But for restoration to the Land God sets forth forgiveness BY COVENANT. This does not get Israel eternal life, but it removes the obstacle of trespasses so that they can be restored to their LAND.

[Alive]

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The question is difficult. Those CHRISTIANS who are alive when Christ comes will never die. Bu they are "changed" (1st Cor.15:50-54). If you mean "natural life" to be that from the mothers womb then Romans 5:12-17 answers that. All men die. If your question was within the context of man's destiny being on earth, then I will state the following;

Man is headed for death and subsequent judgment. At no time do men leave the earth except Christians who are raptured. But these, after a short sojourn in the air, return with Christ (1st Thess.4:13, Rev.19). At the White Throne the "rest of men" are judged. If we consider the conjunction "and" at the beginning of Revelation 21, then there is, on the New Earth, no death (see also 1st Corinthians 15:26). The details of this are not given, but "mortality is swallowed by immortality" for ALL men (Verse 22).

Thus, all men are alive and on earth including Jesus. He being Seed of Abraham (Matt.1:1), must inherit the world (Rom.4:13).

The Roman Catholic Church, which ruled Christianity for thousand years, needed a doctrine of heaven and hell because (i) they sold indulgences, and (ii) they are "Kingdom Now" by doctrine. Matthew 13 says that the  members of the Kingdom were "leavened". That men go to heaven after death is one of their most destructive doctrines. The trouble with leaven is that you can NOT get it out of the grain. Let's take David -future king of Israel (Jer.30:9, Act.15:14-16). In Acts 2:24-36 David is found still dead and his soul in HADES. This was 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension. But the majority of posters on this Forum will fight to have him in heaven.

I agree with much of this, as I understand some of what scripture teaches.

At one time, for years I believed somehow naturally born man would live and continue to reproduce but never die..I reasoned to increasingly fill an empty universe and that we ‘In Christ” with resurrection bodies would have much work to do managing and expressing Christ to them.

Our God is a worker and we will be fellow workers with him.

Such was my thinking. I have since been unable to reconcile some things in that scenario with some points of scripture. There remain ‘apparent’ contradictions, which are actually IMO likely intended by God.

I have said it before and repeat here. I do not believe anyone alive today understand Revelation fully, but the original hearers did..as the Lord provided anointed ones to explain it.

I remain unsure but steadfast in the assurance of His Return and the Resurrection and that we will be co-workers for eternity both in heaven and on earth and beyond. Even that simple language cannot be fathomed.

“But, as it is written, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, nor has the mind of man imagined, the things that God has prepared for those who love him.””

(1 Corinthians 2:9 MOUNCE-NT)

https://accordance.bible/link/read/MOUNCE-NT#1Cor._2:9

[Orion]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The second Covenant was not made with Abraham. It is made with ISRAEL (Ex.34:27). Abraham is a gentile - a Syrian.

This is the dispensational flaw: dividing God's people into ethnic Israel on one side and Gentiles on the other. 

We know this is error because we are told do by God Himself when he told His parables, that there is only one people of God and one destination for God's people, which is everyone that had and has faith in the Genesis 3:15 Seed of the woman. 

We also know from Paul's writings that there is one people, or "one new man", which is all who are in Christ, both Jew and Gentile, which is the Body of Christ,  which, again, is everyone that had and has faith in the Genesis 3:15 Seed of the woman. 

Peace