Why was the rich man in torment?

[timf]

I have been chewing on this for a while have have two possible theories, but am not completely satisfied with ether.It is said that it is appointed for man once to die and then judgement. However, it seems that the rich man had not yet been judged, but was experiencing torment. A sort of oblique answer is given by Abraham;

Luk 16:25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

1. The first theory was that this sort of torment was for Israel as a consequence of disobeying the law (neglect of the poor).

2. The second theory is that this might be independent of final judgement and apply to those who held the truth in unrighteousness. This might be a way that truth is appreciated resulting in a time when every knee shall band and tongue confess. This might see some support from the definition of torments (basanos) This word was used for a touchstone that showed the purity of gold and silver coins. It was also used to describe the torture Greek slaves we given in legal proceeding to verify their testimony.

There is not much detail given about hell (Sheol or Hades). However, phrases like "whose iniquities are upon their bones" (Ez 32:27) do not shed much light.

I would be interested to hear what others, who have given this subject some study, have discovered.

 

[lrs68]

Yeshua was addressing the Sadducees from the perspective of the rich man and his brothers that seemed to be a common belief for years. 

 

But I noticed something that I must have not been able to see nor understand before about the portion that states (remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things).  This intrigues me because it reads like God knew the rich man would not go to Heaven so in mortal life on earth he was given his rewards.   And then for Lazarus he got the short end of the stick on earth because in Heaven he is getting his goods then.

 

Makes me wonder now about those I know who are wealthy on earth and those I know who are struggling to survive week to week let alone day to day.

 

Matthew 5, the Beatitudes, emphasizes the poor, meek, humble that will be greatly rewarded in Heaven.   

 

But that's at least 2 accounts [add the young rich man talking to Yeshua about what he needed to do to go to Heaven] make that 3 accounts where Yeshua directly states being wealthy is more like a curse and being poor is a better lifestyle and recipe to get to Heaven.

[Michael37]

9 hours ago, timf said:

I would be interested to hear what others, who have given this subject some study, have discovered.

I like this list from Albert Barnes' Commentary on what is to be learned from Luke 16:19-31

1. That the souls of people do not die with their bodies.

2. That the soul is “conscious” after death; that it does not “sleep,” as some have supposed, until the morning of the resurrection.

3. That the righteous are taken to a place of happiness immediately at death, and the wicked consigned at once to misery.

4. That wealth does not secure from death.

5. We should not envy the condition of the rich.

6. We should strive for a better inheritance than can be possessed in this life.

7. The sufferings of the wicked in hell will be indescribably great. Think what is represented by “torment;” by burning flame; by insupportable thirst; by that state where a single “drop” of water would afford relief. Remember that “all this” is but a representation of the pains of the damned, and that this will have no intermission day or night, but will continue from year to year, and age to age, without any end, and you have a faint view of the sufferings of those who are in hell.

8. There is a place of sufferings beyond the grave a hell. If there is not, then this parable has no meaning. It is impossible to make “anything” of it unless it be designed to teach that.

9. There will never be any escape from those gloomy regions. There is a gulf fixed - “fixed,” not movable. Nor can any of the damned beat a pathway across this gulf to the world of holiness.

10. We see the amazing folly of those who suppose there may be an “end” to the sufferings of the wicked, and who, on that supposition, seem willing to go down to hell to suffer a long time, rather than go at once to heaven. If man were to suffer but a thousand years, or even “one” year, why should he be so foolish as to choose that suffering rather than go at once to heaven, and be happy at once when he dies?

11. God gives us sufficient warning to prepare for death. He has sent his Word, his servants, his Son; he warns us by his Spirit and his providence; by the entreaties of our friends and by the death of sinners; he offers us heaven, and he threatens hell. If all this will not move sinners, what would do it? There is nothing that would.

12. God will give us nothing farther to warn us. No dead man will come to life to tell us of what he has seen. If he did we would not believe him. Religion appeals to man not by ghosts and frightful apparitions. It appeals to their reason, their conscience, their hopes, their fears. It sets life and death soberly before people, and if they “will not” choose the former, they must die. If you will not hear the Son of God and the warnings of the Scriptures, there is nothing which you will or can hear. You will never be persuaded, and will never escape the place of torment.

[com7fy8]

One basic is the person is conscious.

But why is the person tormented, even before the day of judgment?

The person's character makes the person able to suffer. The person has not been resurrected in one's body; however, the person has one's spirit with character not in God's love, therefore not having Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:29).

 

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

I like this list from Albert Barnes' Commentary on what is to be learned from Luke 16:19-31

no wonder people try to make this a parable... the truths are eye opening!

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, com7fy8 said:

But why is the person tormented, even before the day of judgment?

Where would you have such reprobates?

After the Final Judgment hades/hell itself is cast into the Lake of Fire, but until then, that's where the unsaved wait for the Day of Reckoning. It's much like guilty prisoners on remand, who wait to be sentenced

[AnOrangeCat]

On 6/1/2025 at 9:39 AM, lrs68 said:

But I noticed something that I must have not been able to see nor understand before about the portion that states (remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things).  This intrigues me because it reads like God knew the rich man would not go to Heaven so in mortal life on earth he was given his rewards.   And then for Lazarus he got the short end of the stick on earth because in Heaven he is getting his goods then.

I don't see it so much as "This guy was going to Hell so he's getting his rewards on earth" so much as an example of an idea expressed by Jesus: to whom much is given much is required. In the story it's pointed out that the man had been exposed to the Law, he just failed spectacularly at even trying to pay attention to it as evidenced by the condition and treatment of Lazarus. God certainly knew the rich man would end up like this, so why let him have good things at all? Even sinners get used by God. Beyond that it's difficult to say. We don't really get much context. But it does seem a reminder of both God's compassion toward the destitute and for the rich to remember the poor and that their wealth is a blessing from God.

[Who me]

On 6/1/2025 at 2:51 PM, timf said:

It is said that it is appointed for man once to die and then judgement. However, it seems that the rich man had not yet been judged, but was experiencing torment.

We are not told about the rich man or of Lazarus's judgement, we only see the results of that judgement.

The key to this account is found in verses 29-31.

Neither the rich man nor his brothers paid any attention to the Talmud, they had no personal faith in God and would suffer the consquences.

 

[TheBlade]

On 6/1/2025 at 7:51 AM, timf said:

I have been chewing on this for a while have have two possible theories, but am not completely satisfied with ether.It is said that it is appointed for man once to die and then judgement. However, it seems that the rich man had not yet been judged, but was experiencing torment. A sort of oblique answer is given by Abraham;

Luk 16:25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

1. The first theory was that this sort of torment was for Israel as a consequence of disobeying the law (neglect of the poor).

2. The second theory is that this might be independent of final judgement and apply to those who held the truth in unrighteousness. This might be a way that truth is appreciated resulting in a time when every knee shall band and tongue confess. This might see some support from the definition of torments (basanos) This word was used for a touchstone that showed the purity of gold and silver coins. It was also used to describe the torture Greek slaves we given in legal proceeding to verify their testimony.

There is not much detail given about hell (Sheol or Hades). However, phrases like "whose iniquities are upon their bones" (Ez 32:27) do not shed much light.

I would be interested to hear what others, who have given this subject some study, have discovered.

 

I know what I personally believe kinda haha. I just asked Him about this yesterday. I notice he knew Abraham.. knew him no "sorry who are you?" He lived the law he knew it (my guess) because as one said its not written as to why.  I don't like guessing speculating but I have heard watched read so many things about hell  and fire what I never can wrap my head around is how some demon is either dragging someone to hell or they are tormenting man in hell. I saw a video about how people "mocked God and then this happened". Yeah not the God I know. Again it makes me wonder so those that mock don't know Him at all, never saw or heard yet God goes after them! Yet Satan and ever fallen angel ever demon can right now mock away at GOD so such evill things that man has never done and its man that is tormented and blah blah blah not them. Odd the know "have you come to torment us before out time" So they know a times is coming but not for man that is almost blind to just who the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and Christ really is. 

I know where when and who Christ said "if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains". Are not most blind"? Now not blind to there really is a GOD because creation alone shows us this and no man can say different.  So this rich man knew Abraham and some day (not to us I believe) "if you have done it the lest of these you have done it unto me". Keith Green always talked about this kind of thing. So .. no answer here. I would love to say GOD is not like that but that thought I never play with. I can only go by what is written and many have a answer for this one.  

[lrs68]

On 6/2/2025 at 10:02 PM, AnOrangeCat said:

I don't see it so much as "This guy was going to Hell so he's getting his rewards on earth" so much as an example of an idea expressed by Jesus: to whom much is given much is required. In the story it's pointed out that the man had been exposed to the Law, he just failed spectacularly at even trying to pay attention to it as evidenced by the condition and treatment of Lazarus. God certainly knew the rich man would end up like this, so why let him have good things at all? Even sinners get used by God. Beyond that it's difficult to say. We don't really get much context. But it does seem a reminder of both God's compassion toward the destitute and for the rich to remember the poor and that their wealth is a blessing from God.

As I mentioned in the opening sentence about the Sadducees because that's the old understanding because Yeshua was talking to the Sadducees and the rich man exemplified whose lifestyle resembles the eldest Sadducees and his sons [hence the story was rich man and his brothers].

 

So if we take the context of the things being said, knowing that the Sadducees did not believe in being resurrected, so in their minds they were receiving the reward they deserved [being wealthy, powerful, part of the Sanhedrin in this current life]... what Yeshua said seems to perfectly match up and align towards the Sadducees He was speaking to.