Before Marriage

[angels4u]

sounds like you got some very Godly advise here

[Kabowd]

I know I have put this in a smaller forum and have asked a couple people in the Worthy Chat, but I have seen too many small discussions of people asking for help being taken over by people arguing this very topic. Yes, I am opening a can of worms I know, but know it is a question that is asked by many and there are still some things about this that I question.

Simply, what "ok"(i use that term lightly) before marraige? What is not "ok"? What is right and what is wrong, I guess would be a better one.

I also know that the bible says "flee fornication".. the next question is, what does term "fornication" really entail? Is it really just that three letter word that I can't find it in me post on these boards for all to see or is there more to it? What about kissing? Are there different levels to that? What about holding hands or hugging.. is that wrong too?

Does anyone have a bible verse?

Is there something to be weary of in the though life? If so, how does one deal with that?

Please dont make this into a discussion about when one is truly married. If someone wants, another thread can be started on that too. Not to belabore the point, does anybody know?

Scripture teaches us to "flee" temptation. This implies a desperation and intention that few of us really consider fully. I think often the problem begins when we don't realize the precious value we have in our purity. We should view it as something so sacred, that we protect it with a fierceness most often reserved for life and death situations. That may sound extreme, but purity defiled is a devestating thing. Think of it this way, think of your purity like a newborn baby. Would you leave an newborn child unattended? Lay it by the fire and walk away? Let someone irresponsible care for it? Of course not, you would protect it, guard it, cherish it. Instead of thinking of "how far is too far", set your mind on staying as pure as you can. Purity begins in the mind, way before it involves your body. If anything you do threatens your purity (even of the mind), treat it as you would if someone attacked a newborn baby. Stop it, cut it off, flee from it. That's really the best advice I have.

[IslandRose]

Purity begins in the mind, way before it involves your body. If anything you do threatens your purity (even of the mind), treat it as you would if someone attacked a newborn baby. Stop it, cut it off, flee from it. That's really the best advice I have.

Perfect Tess! If everyone could only get a hold of this. Guard your heart, and also guard your mind, guard your eyes,,,,,

[Nevin]

I know I have put this in a smaller forum and have asked a couple people in the Worthy Chat, but I have seen too many small discussions of people asking for help being taken over by people arguing this very topic. Yes, I am opening a can of worms I know, but know it is a question that is asked by many and there are still some things about this that I question.

Simply, what "ok"(i use that term lightly) before marraige? What is not "ok"? What is right and what is wrong, I guess would be a better one.

I also know that the bible says "flee fornication".. the next question is, what does term "fornication" really entail? Is it really just that three letter word that I can't find it in me post on these boards for all to see or is there more to it? What about kissing? Are there different levels to that? What about holding hands or hugging.. is that wrong too?

Does anyone have a bible verse?

Is there something to be weary of in the though life? If so, how does one deal with that?

Please dont make this into a discussion about when one is truly married. If someone wants, another thread can be started on that too. Not to belabore the point, does anybody know?

I would imagine that penetration is one such no no before marriage. Hugging and kissing each other should not fall under the no no category. When you are courting you become aroused by the other person - this happens because of the "flesh" in us - we need to overcome this flesh and remain pure until marriage. We are off this world but not worldly. Society has desensitised the issue of sex. years back if a naked woman was shownon TV this would be taboo...no this is viewed as common place. Find your answers in the Holy Spirit ...let Him guide you as to the appropriate behaviour. If he/she can not wait then they truly do not love you

[LadyRaven]

You asked for scripture...I'll give you some and some practical applications as I see it. I see these ideas as principles not laws in as much as I've made application of some things, the verses themselves of course are God's Word and should be regarded accordingly.

John 2:15: Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world

The world is the system which is of the flesh, run by satan and excepted and blessed by the primary culture of our society. It is that which breaks the commandments and leads us away from God. In another verse we are told to not be "of the world."

This does not mean that we have to run from every expression of our culture and that everything out there in the world is a sin. Being of the world means being entangled with that culture to the point that it compromises your faith and leaves you no different than everyone else. You are set in a mould, conforming without any thought. You avoid being "of the world" by following the advice of scripture and not "loving" that system.

Not everything which exists out there in our culture is evil on the face of it. We should not feel we need to be hermits, but at the same time we need to not necessarily take up the habits of the primary culture just because it's "the way things are done." It might not be scripturally correct...and if we entangle ourselves in it then we run the risk of loving the things of the world or becoming one with it. In other words we should always be questioning if this or that thing is something which ties myself to the world system, the primary culture or to sin.

How we find a mate is no different. The current way the primary culture seeks a mate is IMO "of the world" or "worldly" by definition. It's about being selfish, it's about being sexual, it's about focusing on the relationship and not our families or God and about throwing away that which somehow does not satisfy us. That is not the correct focus for a believer and IMO also sets forth a dangerous pattern for future behaviour after we are married (the best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour).

And just for the record, I don't mean that the act of driving to a girls house, picking her up and taking her to dinner is sinful. I'm not a "taste not, handle not" legalist type. I'm not about dictating the action as much as conforming the mind and heart to fit with scriptural principles. The focus of many people who take a woman to dinner is what counts...

Matt. 19:4-5: And he answered them and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Since marriage is God's answer to the sexual urges and desires natural to being human, and there has to be a selection process which occurs in order to marry...that selection process is also part of the "doctrine of marriage" just as much as marriage itself is. What significance is this? Well there are several things I see here.

1. It's a man and not a boy. Age isn't as relevent as maturity IMO, but the principle is that this person is a "man" and thus mature enough to have a wife before he gets one. The man is to be grown up before he gets a wife not grow up because he has one. I would also believe that a woman is to be mature before she is chosen, not become so after marriage.

2. You leave your parents: This to me indicates the presence of parents in the life of the man and woman before they are married, whether they live with you or not.

3. The man is addressed: This does not mean that the woman is alone and not guided by this verse, it means that the man has to understand it because HE is the focus. Why? I believe it is because he's the covenant and federal head of any future marriage and thus HE is the one who is to be constructing said marriage from the beginning. HE is the one "seeking" and she is the one who is found.

4. The purpose of "dating" or "courting" is to eventually become one with someone else, not to have a good time or to not be lonely or...whatever. This isn't about finding a golfing buddy or a lover, this is about finding a mate.

Rom 13:14: "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof."

Since lust functions differently for different people I'm not gonna say this that or the other don't do. But whatever inflames either of you should be avoided to the point that you plan your activities so as to make them not even an option.

Romans 2:10: Be devoted to one another and give preference to one another in honour

Love does not mean doing what someone else wants, it means seeking the best for the other person. One thing which is best for the other person is spiritual, emotional and physical purity.

2 Corinthians 6:14-15 (14) Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? (15) Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

Obviously the person that you want to marry must be a believer, so...don't take any steps which would end up making an unbeliever a likely candidate for marriage (like dating/courting behaviour or making them a close confidante which could lead to emotional ties which could lead to romantic feelings).

Another version of scripture says: Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

I also believe that if we look at the imagry used we can come to some other practical conclusions here. The imagry is that of two oxen plowing a field. Being unevenly yoked indicated the use of one really strong one and one really weak one. While I'm not going to make rules on this above and beyond what scripture says, I believe that practical applications can be made. For one, you don't want someone who is a whole lot older or younger than you spiritually. This goes directly to the image presented. There are many others if you think about it. But I'll go into my own applications later.

Prov 6:27-28: Can a man take fire in his bosom and his clothes not be burned? Can one go on hot coals, and his feet not be burned?

Eph 4:22/Gal 5:19 and various other verses teach us that our natures are corrupted and even after we have been regenerate are prone to sin. When dealing with the opposite sex we should keep this in mind and question EVERYTHING we do. Is this going to lead me to sin, or is this desire/action already a sin? Doing things which deliberate excite the other member of this equation is leading this person to sin and at the same time sinning yourself. You're not seeking the greater good of the other person and putting the two of you in danger. this doesn't legally obligate you to a chaperone, but at the same time, it should keep you out of dark rooms...

Prov. 18:22: Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favor of the Lord.

This verse teaches that marriage is a good thing and there has to be some sort of selection process. However, it must take into account the verses already presented. Thus the selection process is not about sexual attraction, it's about other factors.

Deut 7:3: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them (that is, the nations); thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son.

I don't see anything in the NT to put this principle aside, the parents are supposed to be involved. There is a verse in the NT which indicates that a widow is free to remarry "in the Lord" and gives no indication that her parents must be involved again, but for never before marrieds, I don't see any reason scripturally to justify leaving parents OUT of the selection process for finding a mate. These people are the covenant heads of the home until a new home is created by leaving the parents and cleaving to the spouse. Our culture does practice dating without parental oversight, but scripture does not back this practice up in the least.

Also of Note: Joseph sought to divorce Mary before they were even married. Why is that? Because biblically, a betrothal/engagement is a private contract between the couple agreeing to a lifelong partnership. The marriage is the public expression of that contract at a later date. Thus...you should not become engaged until you are ready for the commitment. The engagement is just as much a commitment as the marriage, it isn't a "trial run." You make sure to select a worthy spouse and know that this is right before you bring a ring into the picture.

***

My own insights based on what I've found:

1. If I'm looking or if I were a man looking, I would not be seeking casual, serial sexually charged relationships. In light of the above verses, they are of no spiritual good. Finding a mate is not a casual thing, and it should not be treated as such. It's a serious lifelong commitment you are looking for so you should keep this in mind when you are looking. The idea isn't to "try on" as many shoes as you can before you purchase a pair, the idea is to search to find a shoe that fits the first time around. Granted people are human and sometimes things happen which indicate the need to separate before you make the final commitment, however this is not something you seek. And the idea isn't to remain sexually intrigued. Scripture indicated we're to do our darnedest to avoid being sexually intrigued. We're supposed to avoid being tittilated and burning with desire at all costs. This doens't mean we should seek a person who repulses us, but sexual attraction is NOT the focus of finding a mate.

2. When I look at the imagry of the yoking of oxen used in scripture I also see more parallels than just avoiding marriage to an unbeliever. I'm going to choose a kindred spirit, so to speak. I don't want to be in a situation where we're both instinctively pulling in opposing directions. Thus if I have a calling or talents I'm to use, I'm going to only consider the courtship advances of men who would be apt to protect and cultivate these and not supress them either by direct action or by simply guiding the family away from them.

3. I'm going to look for someone who is of good character and faith. How does this person treat his or her parents and family? How does this person act around their friends? Is their doctrine sound and their walk with God strong? Are they responsible? How long have I actually watched this person? Taking notes for the first two weeks, honestly is not enough. I'm going to choose from people I already know well when they aren't trying to impress me. This way I see them for what they really are not for what they want me to think they are.

4. There's nothing wrong with being practical. If you know yourself well and you know what you need, you shouldn't settle for something you know will leave you miserable. If you are the type to be very dependent on the people you are close to, how smart is it to marry a over the road truck driver? If you don't want children or would not make a good parent, it's not smart to marry someone who already has them or who wants to have a dozen of them is it?

5. Know the difference between things you prefer and things which you require. Having a preference for the way a person appears or the way the dress or act is fine but most of these things are things which are not necessities. If you base your selection of a spouse based on, say their looks, then you will be dissappointed if their weight changes or they gain or lose body hair or decide to change their style of dress. Making sure that the two of you share ALL of your interests in common and ect is not practical, shoot for something more reasonable such as having one or two very dear interests or perhaps having a good majority rather than ALL of them.

6. If you end up for one reason or another NOT marrying the person you have taken to a movie then she or he is not yours, he or she belongs to someone else. Thus you treat this person like a brother or sister in the Lord and not like a sex object. You do not treat them differently than you would your "real" brother or sister until you know for sure that this is the one. Because they may not be "the one" and how are you supposed to treat another mans wife or another woman's husband?

7. Since the point of pairing off is to find a spouse and not an activity partner, you don't pair off until you are ready to be a spouse. This means what it sounds like. If you are emotionally immature, don't date/court. If you are not old enough to marry don't date/court. If you have too much baggage emotionally don't date/court. If you are in debt up to your eyeballs, is this a state which makes you a fit spouse? If you're not right with God, if you are in a major life transition, etc then don't pair off until these things are taken care of.

This is probably more than you asked for, but now you have my two cents.

[Iryssa]

Awesome post, LadyRaven!

While I DO agree that finding a good husband/wife is very largely dependant on "other factors," I DON'T think that we can eliminate sexual attraction entirely (admittedly, I'm not sure you meant that we need to eliminate it entirely, so really, this is more of a footnote). As you said earlier in the post "...marriage is God's answer to the sexual urges and desires natural to being human..." not to mention the need for procreation (not that I'll be one to argue that you MUST raise kids as a Christian couple or you're living in sin...I've always found that kinda silly) and sexual intimacy (distinct from the drive to have sex).

Also, I want to caution all you ladies out there against becoming a wallflower because "good girls don't" or whatever...I'm not saying that you should completely ignore the advice given here and go and make out like mad. What I AM saying is that guys are nervous too, and if you expect them to chase after you when you completely avoid eye contact and never give him signs that you're interested, think again. Guy logic would not immediately tell them "oh, she's just avoiding closeness because she's a good girl. She still secretly wants me to ask her out." What it WOULD probably tell them is "oh man, she doesn't even want to be around me...I guess I don't have a shot." Heck, when you find that special guy, and you think there could be something there, go get him! Flirt with him (not shamelessly...be appropriate while still sending the right signals), let him know you're interested in a relationship! Ruth made it pretty obvious to Boaz what she wanted (check out chapter 3! If that's not an obvious signal, I don't know what is), but they still kept it decent.

[LadyRaven]

Awesome post, LadyRaven!

While I DO agree that finding a good husband/wife is very largely dependant on "other factors," I DON'T think that we can eliminate sexual attraction entirely (admittedly, I'm not sure you meant that we need to eliminate it entirely, so really, this is more of a footnote). As you said earlier in the post "...marriage is God's answer to the sexual urges and desires natural to being human..." not to mention the need for procreation (not that I'll be one to argue that you MUST raise kids as a Christian couple or you're living in sin...I've always found that kinda silly) and sexual intimacy (distinct from the drive to have sex).

Also, I want to caution all you ladies out there against becoming a wallflower because "good girls don't" or whatever...I'm not saying that you should completely ignore the advice given here and go and make out like mad. What I AM saying is that guys are nervous too, and if you expect them to chase after you when you completely avoid eye contact and never give him signs that you're interested, think again. Guy logic would not immediately tell them "oh, she's just avoiding closeness because she's a good girl. She still secretly wants me to ask her out." What it WOULD probably tell them is "oh man, she doesn't even want to be around me...I guess I don't have a shot." Heck, when you find that special guy, and you think there could be something there, go get him! Flirt with him (not shamelessly...be appropriate while still sending the right signals), let him know you're interested in a relationship! Ruth made it pretty obvious to Boaz what she wanted (check out chapter 3! If that's not an obvious signal, I don't know what is), but they still kept it decent.

I don't believe in flirting at all for either sex. I don't believe you should speak in a manner which would not be appropriate in the case where you are speaking to another woman (or man's) spouse. Because if this person ISN"T the one, they ARE someone else's. I'm not saying that you should cower in the corner and protect yourself against guy germs, but flirting is not appropriate. If you are friends with the person and know him well both of you are less likely to feel the need to behave in such an unbecoming way.

[kittylover0991]

Thanks you guys and gals... Honestly, I have completely forgotten about this post *sigh*

In fact.. I had forgotten everything at the time of writing this post.. other than the lust that was in my heart.. to be perfectly honest... Here goes..

Last September 11th, almost a year ago, a guy finally asked me out.. don't get me wrong, lol that was a long process.. knowing each other for over a year, admitting over the phone(we lived far enough way) that we liked each other.. than getting to know each other... My dad had always said i couldnt' have a boyfriend until I was eighteen, and I wish now I hadn't pushed that. I convinced my dad...I said at that time that it was of the Lord... he really seemed like a great guy, and he was... actually no, he is ... *hangs head*. My dad met him, knew I liked him *whistle* but told me that he would have to call and ask my dad's persmission.. He asked my dad on September 11th, 2005. He asked me that night at around 10-11pm.... It was a blessed day. It was absolutely wonderful to have a boyfriend and to talk about the future and just get to know each other like that. However, I knew something wasn't right. We broke up on October 16th because I said there was no future between us. I wasnt willing to admit that it was because we were unequally yoked. I cried and cried... I could hear him crying on the other side of the line.. despite that he tried to hold it back.. I broke his heart.

I wish the story ended here. We got back together December 15th, 15 days before I wrote this post. We coulnd't stand being apart and I hated the sadness in his voice. It wasn't then that I didn't have a boyfriend, but it was that I knew I messed up and hurt him. But we got back together and we were happy for a while. We went to movies and stuff like that, he'd meet me at the bus stop.. we continued to talk for HOURS on end.... January 3, 2006... first kiss...

I don't know what most of the people on here would say, but kissing a guy before marraige is a strong conviction that I once had. Oh, I feel like I'm leading yall in the wrong direction, we never had sex. okay, anyways... I know that I wrote this post because I wanted to know more of what I "could do".. vs couldn't... now I want to know for sure what I shouldn't do.... instead of what I can.... We started kissing on lips... and it was then, that the Holy Spirit really tried to speaking to my heart... then especially, but I wouldn't listen.... we kept going on and on.. every time we saw each other.. we'd kiss(we only saw each other at like the movies or if he walked me to my bus)... We'd hold hands... on the phone, we would talk about things that we shouldn't have talked about... and at the movies *wipes away a tear* we touched when we shouldnt' have touched.

February 25th... I have written a lot about this date on here... I was hating everythign with Christianity.. I could no longer hear the Holy Spirits voice because I hated it so much, I had forgotten how to listen... I didn't want to listen... I cursed the day I accepted Christ because of the convictions I had.. and I envied those around me that had boyfriends becuase they didtn' have to follow what I had to follow.. they could hold hands, kiss, have sex, etc... and it wouldn't bother them a bit... That irritated me so much... along with my own private habitual sin, which was only hurt by this relationship.... I couldn't take it anymore... a couple times I broke down and cried.. once even in the gym of the church.... It hurt so bad...

But on Feb 25th, 2006... the Lord really spoke to my heart.. that was my sixteenth birthday.. a man was there at the church.. my best friend and I stayed to watch his daughter while he painted the pastor's new office... (we were remolding some things).... and without even knowing it.. the Lord used him to open doors. That man is no longer at the church.. I still have paint on my hoodie from where I went against the wall.. and... well.. it breaks my heart that he is no longer at the church... I almost wish he would read this and come back.. but I know that won't happen...

Anyways.... the Lord spoke to me so much.. that night I went and had a devotion.. I prayed and just cried out to God.... God my heart right with God and you know? Was away from that habitual sin for fifty days.. what a spiritual blessing adn what a milestone for that time... but on March 1st.. that Wednesday night.. I talked to my old sunday school teacher because he had taught us in eight grade about the whole boy/girl thing.. about GIGO- Garbage In, Garbage out... bad thoughts.. opposite gender.. etc.... the biblical version.. I went and talked to him and asked him what the bible said about something....

He told me exactly, "Amos 3:3"... I'm guessing many know this verse and I think Lady might have quoted it.. "Can two walk together except they be agreed".

You know? My boyfriend was Pentecostal and I'm Baptist... and that is what the problem was.. we were unequally yoked.. we had difference of doctrine.. and completely different convictions... not even including the fact that I let go of most of my convictions.... That night, I kept trying to call him.. but every time I called.. he was still at church.. finally got him at about 10 that night... and we talked... I told him that I talked to a man at my church abotu somethign and led into it from there... I told him straight forward why it was that we coudlnt' be together.. why there was no future between us... It hurt him again.... I cried and again, in the silence.. I could hear him trying to hold it back...

Yeah.. we are still really good friends, and I praise the Lord for that.. but here is the thing.. do you know what happened after getting off that phone? I was afraid that like in October, I would cry to sleep again... I was afraid to be in pain again... but guess what... I got off and this complete feeling of peace swept over me... and the words came to mind, "Praise God Almighty, I'm free at last"...that is just what came to mind for some odd reason... the next morning, a friend at school did the happy dance with me I was free.

Free from what? Free from sin.. free from a bondage that I willingly accepted and willingly endured... at what expense? the heart of a dear friend.... He called me that Saturday and said that our kids would be Baptist and he'd convert.. just about killed him for that.. but that finally dropped by the wayside.... *shakes head*....

My point is.... I now know, more than ever... that when going into relationships... it's better be rigth in God's eyes and you'd better be equally yoked.. or it only causes despair... and... you better have strong convictions about what is right and wrong in a pre-marrital relationship.... or it will eat you up inside to the point of emptiness....

I asked this question orginally not because I wanted to know what I couldn't do.. but rather.. what I could do... and that was wrong... I just want to know now... what is right.... so that I can be pleasing in God's eyes in a relationship .. with the man that he sees fit.. the one that HE has chosen .. not the one that I have chosen...

Listen to you heart.

Crystal

[LadyRaven]

Wow, thats a very powerful post, such a deep experience for such a young age and I'm glad you learned from it. Keep to what you know to be right, never compromise your principles for a guy because if he'll ask before you marry imagine how bad it will be after. Grace and peace to you.

[Iryssa]

Awesome post, LadyRaven!

While I DO agree that finding a good husband/wife is very largely dependant on "other factors," I DON'T think that we can eliminate sexual attraction entirely (admittedly, I'm not sure you meant that we need to eliminate it entirely, so really, this is more of a footnote). As you said earlier in the post "...marriage is God's answer to the sexual urges and desires natural to being human..." not to mention the need for procreation (not that I'll be one to argue that you MUST raise kids as a Christian couple or you're living in sin...I've always found that kinda silly) and sexual intimacy (distinct from the drive to have sex).

Also, I want to caution all you ladies out there against becoming a wallflower because "good girls don't" or whatever...I'm not saying that you should completely ignore the advice given here and go and make out like mad. What I AM saying is that guys are nervous too, and if you expect them to chase after you when you completely avoid eye contact and never give him signs that you're interested, think again. Guy logic would not immediately tell them "oh, she's just avoiding closeness because she's a good girl. She still secretly wants me to ask her out." What it WOULD probably tell them is "oh man, she doesn't even want to be around me...I guess I don't have a shot." Heck, when you find that special guy, and you think there could be something there, go get him! Flirt with him (not shamelessly...be appropriate while still sending the right signals), let him know you're interested in a relationship! Ruth made it pretty obvious to Boaz what she wanted (check out chapter 3! If that's not an obvious signal, I don't know what is), but they still kept it decent.

I don't believe in flirting at all for either sex. I don't believe you should speak in a manner which would not be appropriate in the case where you are speaking to another woman (or man's) spouse. Because if this person ISN"T the one, they ARE someone else's. I'm not saying that you should cower in the corner and protect yourself against guy germs, but flirting is not appropriate. If you are friends with the person and know him well both of you are less likely to feel the need to behave in such an unbecoming way.

I guess I would say I'm kinda fuzzy on your definition of "flirting"...I mean, I don't personally think that every kind of flirting has to do with "speak[ing] in a manner that would not be appropriate." To me, flirting is simply using body language and talk to express your interest in a person. You don't need to pull a Joey Tribbiani with the leer and "How you doin'"...it's more of a sense of playfulness than serious hitting on someone (and I agree, hitting on someone IS inappropriate).