WHICH Commandments?

[Clio]

ahhh, ya I just didnt recognize the acrynome.

For the sabbith tihng, read romans. Paul speaks about our freedom as Christians. We are no longer bound by any of the law. You can honor a day above others for the lord, or honor all days equally. Actually, reading romans would clear up alot of things for 7th day adventists. We are not bound by mans or the Jewish laws as Christians. Saying our actions dictate our salvation is a gross lie and goes against the heart of what Jesus preached.

Uh... No, deadman, and the rest of you.

In James, it is made quite clear. Faith comes first, and from a heart of faith, filled with love, comes obedience. Romans is very well studied by Seventh Day Adventists. They tend to have a heavy works focus, and struggle with the concept that only faith saves.

But what they, and most everyone else on the face of the planet seems to miss, and it's made extremely clear throughout the book of James, is that obedience from a loving faith filled heart is also necessary. You cannot do one and not the other. James tells us that just as works without faith is a dead thing, so is faith without works.

Now, as to the Sabbath... at the moment it is not a salvation issue. HOWEVER, when a form of worship becomes mandatory, and it will, then obedience to Abba in the day of worship will become a salvation issue. The reason is that pesky mark of the beast.

See, the beast system, while it has economic, military, and governmental manifestations, is going to come down to one thing. False worship. The mark, received in either the hand or the forehead will identify those who have compromised their worship. They no longer worship the Creator, they worship the Beast.

Well, the side of Abba will also have a mark. One that is visible to all, that seals the Law. Just think about what a seal embodies. It's a sign of the authority by which the One doing the sealing has the right to seal whatever they're sealing.

What is the right of Abba Father? His Authority as Creator.

Read Exodus 20 again. Read the Three Angels messages in Revelation. Why are we called to worship Abba? We are called to worship Him because He is the Creator. The Sabbath was sanctified and hallowed at Creation. In the 10 commandments it specifically says, Remember...... because in 6 days the Lord created Heaven and Earth and all that is within them.

The Sabbath will become the equal and opposite to the mark of the Beast.

Now... about those first day of the week verses.

Remember, all the NT writers are Jews, products of the culture in which they live. For the Jewish people from Creation to now, the first day of the week begins at sundown Saturday night. "The evening and the morning were the first day".

The assembly to which Paul preached took place on Saturday night. He preached until midnight, got up the next morning and traveled on. He did NOT attend a gathering churchlike service.

The same with Jesus. When the women reached the garden, it was dawn. We are told the first light of morning. Jesus rose from the dead sometime after sundown Saturday night and before Sunday daylight. Even in the tomb He rested.

There is NO biblical support for worshipping on Sunday because that's the day Jesus rose. The day of worship is not to commemorate the resurrection of Jesus. Because it's not His resurrection that's important. It was the spilling of His blood accomplished through His death that brought us into Blood Covenant with Abba Father.

The resurrection is the sign the Covenant was accepted. Not the mechanism of salvation. Since it is creating a right relationship with Abba Father, the Creator that is all important, and Jesus came to bring us into Blood Covenant with the Father, then worshipping on the day that He identified, that identifies His authority as Creator, is going to be crucial.

It is the outward sign of total surrender to His will, even if you don't agree with it. It is the outward sign that the believer has chosen the authority and rule of Abba Father over the religions of man, over their own ideas and beliefs, and reaches out with a loving heart to be obedient to His will.

Something as explicit and important as the Sabbath would have been explicitly and specifically changed.

It wasn't.

Clio

[deadman1204]

Rom 14:5-6 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

As Christians we are freed from the law (which we were never bound to as gentiles.) Whatever we do or don't do, is for the Lord. Condemning someone worshipping on one day over another as sin is sinning yourself. You place a stumbling block before them, making them doubt; and you coerce them to stop doing something for the Lord and instead do it for a man (you.)

Rom14:23 ... for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

The entire chapter is in this vein. It is how we do the things in our life that counts as much as what we do.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Nothing we do impacts our salvation in anyway. To say counter is herasy.

You cannot take certain verses in the bible and build a theology without taking everything else into equal account. All verses in the bible are in agreement. Anyt doctrine that is counter to a single verse is flawed. That is why it is so dangerous to base your theology off of a handful of verses or topics that are only mentioned once or twice.

You are basing the whole end times thing off of random thoughts people have had from revelations. There is no scriptural bases to prove worshipping on the sabbith in the end times will matter. In fact that is in direct contradiction to what I've quoted so far.

Mal3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not...

Nothing changes for us. God will not change the tune part way through. Salvation and what God wants from us has been the same throughout all the history of creation.

*edit - typos

Edited January 24, 2006 by deadman1204

[Clio]

Deadman,

It's not my job to convict your heart. That is the Spirit's job.

I do agree with you that the Bible never contradicts itself. My position above is based on careful, Spirit led exegesis. Of Romans as well as other books. Thirty plus years worth.

I NEVER put forth anything I cannot substantiate from the full compendium of whatever the Scriptures have to say on any given topic, including anything in Revelations, Romans, the OT, the NT, you name it.

I do not proof text. Ever.

Part of why I did not do so above, is that there have been numerous topics on the Sabbath. I took the time to read them. I also tailored my post to reflect an easier time of reading what I desired to communicate.

If you would like to look into the scriptural basis of my post, please request the texts in question. If your mind is closed then there is no point until the Spirit determines it's time.

Oh... and before anyone points fingers or asks, I am not a member of any denomination, and thus have no agenda to push other than what the Bible actually says.

Clio

[EricH]

Deadman,

It's not my job to convict your heart. That is the Spirit's job.

Absolutely true!!

I do agree with you that the Bible never contradicts itself. My position above is based on careful, Spirit led exegesis. Of Romans as well as other books. Thirty plus years worth. I NEVER put forth anything I cannot substantiate from the full compendium of whatever the Scriptures have to say on any given topic, including anything in Revelations, Romans, the OT, the NT, you name it.

This in itself does not reallyprove anything, or demonstrate the correctness of where you have landed. All theologians make the exact same claim and many come to contradicting conclusions.

Oh... and before anyone points fingers or asks, I am not a member of any denomination, and thus have no agenda to push other than what the Bible actually says.

So are you a part of any fellowship of believers?

[EricH]

The same with Jesus. When the women reached the garden, it was dawn. We are told the first light of morning. Jesus rose from the dead sometime after sundown Saturday night and before Sunday daylight. Even in the tomb He rested.

Actually this is eisogesis (reading into the text) rather than exegesis. I don;t believe the scriptures themselves ever make the statement that the reason Jesus remained in the tomb was for rest.

[other one]

The Sabbath will become the equal and opposite to the mark of the Beast.

Clio

I truly don't understand where this comes from....

[Clio]

Deadman,

It's not my job to convict your heart. That is the Spirit's job.

Absolutely true!!

I do agree with you that the Bible never contradicts itself. My position above is based on careful, Spirit led exegesis. Of Romans as well as other books. Thirty plus years worth. I NEVER put forth anything I cannot substantiate from the full compendium of whatever the Scriptures have to say on any given topic, including anything in Revelations, Romans, the OT, the NT, you name it.

This in itself does not reallyprove anything, or demonstrate the correctness of where you have landed. All theologians make the exact same claim and many come to contradicting conclusions.

Oh... and before anyone points fingers or asks, I am not a member of any denomination, and thus have no agenda to push other than what the Bible actually says.

So are you a part of any fellowship of believers?

I visit where He leads. I have attended worship services with all Christian denominations with a stronger emphasis in the conservative crowd, and have enjoyed fellowshiping with some non-denominational congregations recently. There is also a cell-group of which I am a part, but mostly I follow wherever the Spirit and Jesus lead me.

Clio

[Clio]

The same with Jesus. When the women reached the garden, it was dawn. We are told the first light of morning. Jesus rose from the dead sometime after sundown Saturday night and before Sunday daylight. Even in the tomb He rested.

Actually this is eisogesis (reading into the text) rather than exegesis. I don;t believe the scriptures themselves ever make the statement that the reason Jesus remained in the tomb was for rest.

I didn't say they did. However, the Bible in many places likens death to sleep. In Ecclesiastes is says it specifically. The point of the Sabbath is rest, and it's not a stretch to say that if one is sleeping one is resting. Whether the intent was to "rest" we are not told, but the effect which we can observe is that He slept the sleep of death over the Sabbath. None of His redemptive work was performed thereon.

However, I can see from my sentence structure in your quote from my post that it could also be read that way. You are correct that the Scriptures are silent as to His intent of being in the heart of the earth over the Sabbath hours.

But it does remain that before dawn on Sunday morning, quite soon after the hallowed hours had drawn to a close, He is up and about the His Father's business again. And the Bible IS explicit on that.

*shrugs*

Done with the topic now. Nothing I say will over and above what is here will convict anyone. Only the Spirit can, and He knows what anyone's heart needs. We are not all in the same place in our walks with Abba.

Clio

[deadman1204]

yes card, I agree that it doesnt give us license to sin as we would please.

But if we love God, we won't try to sin. Following God's wishes is expression of our love for him. How lucky we are to be able to express our love for the lord.

I in no way meant to promote sinning. Because while nothing we do can impact our salvation - there is still far more to life after we are saved.

Clio, your playing word games to prove your points, not backing them up with scripture. I feel I must call you on it - dodging providing proof as you are is usually a sign that someone is wrong but unwilling to admit it.

[Clio]

yes card, I agree that it doesnt give us license to sin as we would please.

But if we love God, we won't try to sin. Following God's wishes is expression of our love for him. How lucky we are to be able to express our love for the lord.

I in no way meant to promote sinning. Because while nothing we do can impact our salvation - there is still far more to life after we are saved.

Clio, your playing word games to prove your points, not backing them up with scripture. I feel I must call you on it - dodging providing proof as you are is usually a sign that someone is wrong but unwilling to admit it.

I'm not playing word games. Tell me which parts you want scripture for and I'll gladly provide it. No worries. I've found if you load something down with direct quotes it gets so long people won't bother to read it, and if they don't read it, they don't learn.

Clio