Jesus

[nebula]

OK, I went back to double-check, and this is what I found:

Then explain away the RESURRECTION for me....historically speaking. Why were the Jewish and Roman authorities never able to produce a so-called "stolen" body?

Who knows....but I know you weren't there for personal account. He's talking about mythology finding it's way in.

Grave Robbing has been around since graves existed. If people treasured a person, they'll probably treasure his valuables. Ebay is hear because of dead Elvis too.

EDITTED IN PART: As far as the stolen body goes.....there are unsolved crimes today, with all of this technology and time and understanding on our side. Why couldn't someone get away with it then?

Also think that since they couldn't find the body, they told themselves it must be true generation to generation until it got to you and it's still true....

matt

Give me a better answer than that BA. You're reaching for straws now. Again, I ask....what happened to the body??

Ok BA....I saw where you "editted" in your response to my question about what happened to the body of someone who Ratio may think never existed. So, let's talk a little here. Since the Jews historically had a physical concept of resurrection, one of the things they would do was to keep the bones of their deceased, and put them in storage to be preserved until the resurrection (granted the Saduccees didn't believe this) when The LORD would raise up the righteous dead of their nation of people and bring them together in the final kingdom.

Now, if CHRIST didn't exist, YET HE had all of those followers even BEFORE the Church was established, and HE was the righteous person all claimed HIM to be, wouldn't you honestly find it kind of strange that under the so called tight security provided around HIS grave that there were NO BONES ever found to be preserved? Incidently....no well known academic authorities today assert that the body was stolen (graverobbers or not). They've dismissed that form of thinking. So then that brings us back full circle to this....where is the body?

You know Matt, I've found it rather interesting how you've avoided my question. Is that because you don't have an answer for me? A bit baffling, isn't it to say the least. However, don't worry. Every atheist I've asked that question hasn't been able to return an answer of substance to me. And that's basically because once you do some strong background research on the historical facts surrounding JESUS CHRIST, you'll find the evidence weighs VERY STRONGLY in HIS favor...that is, in being WHO HE claimed to be.

I figured you wouldn't be able to respond, so by not doing so my friend, you already given me your answer - you don't know. Thanks anyway Matt!

Actually I got lost in another thread and was busy through-out the day in my life......

I do know, but your patronizing makes me not care...

Thanks anyway for accusing. Boost the ego a bit doesn't it? Good for you....good for you.....

matt

Note the part above I bolded.

That was an uncalled for snubb - not a search for the truth.

(snip)

About your bones....

I'm in the middle of talking to Artsylady about the origins of the gospels and them all being made after Jesus died. So in between Jesus' death and the writing of the Bible there was some sensationalism going on, which was popular at the time. We still like the Enquirer. I'd encourage you to join us there on our point for point discussion.

About me being attacked, it's happened hear a few times so I might have a preconception built that's unjustified on the masses. I apologize.

I look forward to your comments.

matt

That isn't an answer to the question; that's a throw-off!

And the Enquirer - really.

I'll keep looking through this thread to see if you managed an answer that acknowledges the historical facts of the time, not assumed "sensationalism."

[nebula]

Thanks anyway for accusing. Boost the ego a bit doesn't it? Good for you....good for you.....

Note the part above I bolded.

That was an uncalled for snubb - not a search for the truth.

Yeah, I did, I went back and bolded what made the snub called for. The guy gave me all of one day, like I don't have anything to do with my life. If you look through that day you'll see I hardly posted since you like doing research. This is a two-way street right? You aren't just gonna take the Christians back because you are one, right Nebula? I mean, common, some selective hearing going on.

If so, then you say something like, "Don't jump to conclusions," and "I'll get back to you on this when I have more time."

That shows sincerity.

What you posted smacks of "nanny-nanny-booing."

Is that how one engages in a meaningful debate?

If you want to debate facts - stick with facts.

If you are in search of truth, then please show that you are sincerely looking into any claims or challenges people give.

That's all I'm asking!

(snip)

About your bones....

I'm in the middle of talking to Artsylady about the origins of the gospels and them all being made after Jesus died. So in between Jesus' death and the writing of the Bible there was some sensationalism going on, which was popular at the time. We still like the Enquirer. I'd encourage you to join us there on our point for point discussion.

About me being attacked, it's happened hear a few times so I might have a preconception built that's unjustified on the masses. I apologize.

I look forward to your comments.

matt

That isn't an answer to the question; that's a throw-off!

And the Enquirer - really.

I'll keep looking through this thread to see if you managed an answer that acknowledges the historical facts of the time, not assumed "sensationalism."

I can see where to you that might be a throw-off. Your faith determines certains FACTS. My lack of faith tells me that I can think on my own and I'm trying to arrive at facts with you but we(ME AND YOU) fail miserably. So your fact, is fiction to me. My fact, is a "throw off" to you. Understand?

But have you actually researched history and the conclusions of historians? What is your evidence that the Gospels were written from sensationalism? How do you know senstionalism was "popular at the time"? What is your basis for this claim?

Please - show us your FACTS.

I got 2 PMs from Christians on this board that told me they understood what was going on with this thread and hoped I stayed. In total 7 PMs hoping I stay and none telling me I play games and leave. I'm trying to get a good concensus on if people want me to leave or not. Just PM me and tell me you want me to leave Nebula.

matt

I'm not saying I want you to leave.

And I could care less about popularity contests.

All I am asking is that you stop whining every time someone challenges you and your position.

If you are sure of facts - then please, stick with the facts, and please actually present the facts.

And if you do not want to be associated with the stigma of the "Games" passage, then please kindly not attack the other posters, as you have been doing throughout this thread.

That is all I am asking.

In all honesty, it is in poor taste to demand Board members to be respectful of you and your beliefs when you yourself have been disrespectful to others and their beliefs first.

That is all I'm saying.

[nebula]

I'm trying the best I know how and I can see where you might get the impression that I'm whining but I know on this side I'm not. As a matter of fact, I'm dumbfounded most of the time. You have to understand, it's kind of a rough road I hold when I'm suppose to produce evidence against a God that may or may not exist.

So, does this mean you are finally admitting that you are attempting to turn us away from faith in Jesus, rather than just "making us think"?

Well, that's a start - being honest about your resons for posting here.

Thank-you!

Wouldn't be easier to prove he DOES EXIST?

Well, the question we were discussing was about the existance of a Jewish man named Jesus (Yeshua) about 2000 years ago who was crucified and of whom His followers claimed is the Son of God and rose from the dead. Now, about those claims, yes there is debate, but the existance of Jesus is no more questioned by historians than the existance of Muhammed.

So, how does anyone sneak a body out of a tomb guarded by well-trained Roman soldiers when the soldier's lives depended upon the body not getting stolen?

That's science, it's unscientific to prove something DOESN'T EXIST, but I can give you plausablie scenarios. Meanwhile you are suppose to support your theory that he DOES EXIST but you only have the Bible(circular referencing supported by fear of retribution if you go against it), your faith(anti-thesis of logic), and personal testimoney(heresay.)

I have learned it to be pretty pointless to try to prove God's existance (since you've jumped to this topic).

Every ex-athiest/ex-agnostic turned Christian I know of did so because of their own personal quests, not because someone managed to debate them well.

But again, this wasn't exactly the focus of this particular debate, was it?

The only thing I heard constructive that I can remember from anyone lately that could be proved is that there are 500 witnesses somewhere. GIVE ME NAMES!

Peter, whom Roman Catholics claim founded the Roman Catholic Church.

John who wrote 4 letters that became part of the New Testament.

But you say that the testimony of these men who lived 2000 years ago can't be trusted, correct?

Well, why do you trust the testimony of Egyptians who wrote about their kings 3000 years ago? Just because they wrote on stone instead of paper?

Do me another favor, sincerely, can you tell me what you know of the scientific method? It's the foundation debate is built on.

The scientific method only works in a controlled experiment. I've been in science discussions where it was questioned whether or not the scientific method taught in schools was real to the scientific world or just good textbook-ism. (The philosophy of science - what an interesting school subject, huh?)

Seriously, though, I have a bachelors in science. I currently teach Anatomy & Physiology at a local community college. So, yeah, I know - problem, hypothesis, test hypothesis, support or refute hypothesis, re-test if needed, ya-da ya-da.

I hope you realize that there is more to life than science, and rational thinking encompasses only a portion of your brain's capacities - ask any woman!

And yes, I've been hitting my head against a wall with you guys lately.

Hey - we have something in common against each other!

[ted]

Matt,

I think you understand that Christians are asked to believe in our Father by faith, not by science.

If He wanted to reveal Himself to all and clear all doubt, He could. But what would be the value? It is by our trust in Him that He wants our belief.

It's a simple concept, really. He gives us enough to make a decision. It's up to us to decide. We are to decide by faith, and in trust, and by hearing the Word.

Personally, I think you understand this, because you have stated that you were raised hearing the Word, right?

So, I think that your refusal to believe in God is not based on scientific theory, because I think you understand the concept of faith, and how God wants us to trust in through it.

If you are still searching, than I hope that you can settle this matter one day. Please, let me know if I can help in any way.

If you have decided simply to reject the Word, than I simply do not understand why you would waste so much time here trying to convince us that we are wrong. It simply would cease to matter to you. If the matter was settled in your heart as to His non-existence, I don't think would waste the time trying to argue the matter.You are not like many people who do not accept God. Others have either not heard the Gospel, or have heard it twisted, and that has affected their decision.

You have said in one long post that you used to go to church a lot while growing up, so you know the deal. You simply choose to not believe it.

So, this begs the question: Why waste the time here? If it's not true, why bother? You are not one that simply wants to know what makes Christians "tick", like others have stated. You already know what makes us "tick" because you were raised in it.

I think it goes a little deeper than that. If you want to know my opinion, I think you are searching for proof of God so that you can truly believe in Him. That's why you are here.

You are not stupid by any stretch of the word. In fact, I think that you are very intelligent and that you desire to settle this matter once and for all. I don't think that you have made a final decision about God at all.

I might be wrong about all of this. It certainly wouldn't be the first or last time I was wrong about something. Only you know the truth about the matter.

If it's proof you need to settle the matter, than by all means, continue your search. But, I think that deep down, you understand the concept of God's will and that He wants us to love Him through faith.

Have a great night and let me know if there is anything I can do.

t.

PS- For the record, I do think that you have played some games once in a while here. It's ok, we all do it at times. Some days, it just can't be helped. I mean, I've done it, as well. Sometimes, our pride gets between us and civility, and the fingers just start typing....

But, I truly wish that you will stay, and see no reason why you should leave.

[angels4u]

Matt: Some wise words-----

Did you know that it takes more faith to deny God that to believe in Him?

And I guess you still evolving too

? Who knows you might evolve to become a born again Christian

If our greatest need had been information, God would have sent an educator. If our greatest need had been technology, God would have sent us a scientist. If our greatest need had been money, God would have sent us an economist. But since our greatest need was forgiveness, God sent us a Saviour.

[artsylady]

Good thoughts Ted.

PS- For the record, I do think that you have played some games once in a while here. It's ok, we all do it at times. Some days, it just can't be helped. I mean, I've done it, as well. Sometimes, our pride gets between us and civility, and the fingers just start typing....

But, I truly wish that you will stay, and see no reason why you should leave.

Leaving? Did I miss something?

[ted]

Matt has asked people that wish to see him leave to PM him and let him know.

The last I heard, only a few had, but most didn't want him to leave. At least, I think that's the scoop right now.

Personally, I don't want anyone to leave that is half-way civil, and honestly wants to learn more about the Lord. I figure it's better for them to hang around and listen.

But, there are some that just want to be nasty and post junk. These people can hit the pavement for all I care.

t.

[angels4u]

All it boils down to is to RESPECT each other

[Guest lnj]

I wonder what you people think of those who assert that Jesus Christ never actually existed (as a historical person). Among those people even bible scholars such as Prof. Robert Price. (link deleted)

How do you deal with the fact that there is no evidence of Jesus.

What do you say about accusations, that the Jesus of the Gospels bears a striking resemblance to other ancient heroes and the figureheads of pagan savior cults?

The early founders of Christianity seem wholly unaware of the idea of a human Jesus?

.

.

.

It's called FAITH. Believing in the unseen God. No wooden idols or such for us to pray to, a faith that He is alive and well and living in me. Trust me, once you've tasted the honey from the honeycomb, there is no DOUBT!!!!