Purgatory.

[Tari]

Well, we will all see the truth behind everything in the end. So, you can attack me all you want, and say whatever you will about what the Catholic church believes. Although the church has dealt with many corrupt people over the centuries, that has never been able to change the original foundation of the church. I never said anything about belief in purgatory, taking away from Jesus dying for our sins. If people in the past were taking money for the belief in purgatory for the church, well that matter is between them and the Lord. There is a big difference between talking about the church itself verses any corrupt members within. If we were to judge all churches according to rumours about certain members behavior, most all churches would look pretty bad.

[Copper Scroll]

I agree nothing unclean will enter heaven.

Praise God that Christ did all of the work for us, we need nothing else to become totally clean.

Now, this has profound implications for the experience of heaven. Imagine who you are as a person--your particular set of habits, personality traits, quirks, etc. Many of these (if not most or all) are based in some way on sin. If we are (somehow) cleansed of all sin before entering heaven, we must enter heaven completely different people. We might even all be (eek!) the same! Even traits we normally consider virtues might mean nothing in a sin-free environment. Who will be the me (God-willing) that enters heaven?

[Pax]

There are several references to Purgatory in scripture, however it isn't spelled out word for word. But either is the topic of the Trinity, the death of Joseph, and many other aspect of Christianity. There have been a few things written on this thread that aren't quite accurate. First of all the Catholic Church teaches that when a person dies they will either go to three places. Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. If a person goes to hell they are there for eternity and it isn't a pleasent place. If a person goes to Purgatory they will eventually be in Heaven. Most of us will be in purgatory for a period of time. Purgatory isn't a pleasent place either, but the person in Purgatory will have the satisfaction of knowing that they will eventually be in heaven. A person in hell will have no hope.

The purpose of Purgatory is very simple, to purify each person before entering heaven. Yes, Christ died on the cross to save us from our sins so that we could have a chance at salvation, but this didn't make us perfect. For one to enter into heaven and sit at the feet of God, they must be purified.

Please look up:

1 Peter 3:18-19 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the longsuffereing of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

I would ask all of you, why would Christ preach to spirits in prison, and what might prison be? Purgatory.

1 Corinthians 15: 29-30 "Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour?"

Why would Paul mention people being baptized for the dead?

I will also throw in 2 Maccabees 12:46 for any of you who have a Catholic Bible, this is very clear.

Judas Maccabeus stated "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin."

Unfortunantly, Martin Luther removed this book from the Bible because it didn't fit his personal theology. It had been included in every Bible up until the Reformation. That would be for the first 1,500 years after Christ died on the cross. So yes, Purgatory is in scripture, it is a real place, and it is a doctrine of the Catholic faith.

[ayin jade]

In the works based beliefs of catholicism, you can never be sure you are purified from sin, hence the need for purgatory. Yet Ephesians 2 tells us

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Jesus said on the cross: It is finished! (John 19:30). What was finished if we have to have purgatory to clean us from sins? Jesus completed the work of redemption. He alone is all we need for salvation.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

That verse tells us that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin. Not some sins and purgatory does the rest. Only His blood cleanses us.

1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.

Dont see where Jesus isnt sufficient for our sins.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He has made Him who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.

That verse says forever, not only until you commit sin and then have to go to purgatory. Since He has perfected, then we dont need more cleansing in purgatory. For those who believe in purgatory, how do you reconcile Hebrews 10:14 with the doctrine of purgatory?

There are clear verses that say that when we die we go to be with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better.

The greek text shows (and Im not a greek linguist so am relying on outside sources for this) that the grammer depicts both actions (departing and being with Christ) as connective actions. That is, one action is immediately part of the other action. So departing from here is immediately being with Christ. No room for purgatory in that verse.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Then being always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord;

7 for we walk by faith, not by sight;

8 then we are confident and we are pleased rather to go away from home out of the body, and to come home to the Lord.

The greek grammer once again shows that both actions are connected. That is, to be at home in the body is to be continuing to be absent from the Lord. Verse 8 grammer indicates a sense of once for all to its words, so to be away from the body is to be once for all home with the Lord. (Again relying on outside sources for greek grammer lesson here.)

For those who believe in purgatory, how do you reconcile the verses in Philippians and 2 Corinthians with purgatory?

[ayin jade]

1 Peter 3:18-19 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the longsuffereing of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

I would ask all of you, why would Christ preach to spirits in prison, and what might prison be? Purgatory.

1) This text does not support the essential ideas of purgatory.

2) There is no evidence in the fair interpretation of the passage that any salvationally possible message is given to them while in prison. Jesus most likely just told them a message of "It is done".

3) There is not the slightest hint that they can be released by any prayers or offerings of those who dwell on the earth. The simple idea is that of persons confined as in a prison; and the passage will prove only that in the time when the apostle wrote there were those who were thus confined.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment.

No mention of purgatory in this verse. How do you reconcile this with purgatory?

[ayin jade]

1 Corinthians 15: 29-30 "Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour?"

Why would Paul mention people being baptized for the dead?

That passage encourages people to remain in faith. To remember that we are baptized with the knowledge that as He was resurrected, so will we be one day.

Romans 6:4 By our baptism, then, we were buried with him and shared his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from death by the glorious power of the Father, so also we might live a new life.

I will also throw in 2 Maccabees 12:46 for any of you who have a Catholic Bible, this is very clear.

Judas Maccabeus stated "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin."

Unfortunantly, Martin Luther removed this book from the Bible because it didn't fit his personal theology. It had been included in every Bible up until the Reformation. That would be for the first 1,500 years after Christ died on the cross.

Maccabees isnt scripture. Its words dont matter when they contradict the bible. These "lost" books were known by the Jews in Old Testament times and the Christians of the New Testament times and were never considered scripture. They weren't removed. They were never in the Bible in the first place. Early Christian leaders were vocal in their opposition to the so called lost books. They were not included in the Bible for several reasons. They lacked apostolic or prophetic authorship, they did not claim to be the Word of God; they contain unbiblical concepts or have some serious historical inaccuracies. The RCC has added certain books to the canon of scripture. In 1546, largely due in response to the Reformation, the Roman Catholic church authorized several more books as scripture known as the apocrypha.

The apocrypha never claimed to be inspired text. In fact, 2 Maccabees which you cite as a proof text questions whether or not it is reliable.

2 Mac 2:23. all this, which has been set forth by Jason of Cyrene in five volumes, we shall attempt to condense into a single book. (Shows it is another mans work to begin with.)

2 Mac 15:38. If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that was the best I could do. (Shows the author doesnt believe it is inerrant word of God, merely his own best efforts.)

How do you reconcile this view by the author of 2 Maccabees with the view that Scripture is inerrant and God inspired?

[gypc]

Purgatory is just another false teaching that people try to add to the finished work of the cross. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, if we have to go to this place for cleansing then his blood was only almost good enough.

No, this is an excuse to live anyway you want and be atoned later. If there were such a place, God would have made it clear in his word. Just another foggy maybe.

1 John 1: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

His blood cleanses us from all sin.

Purgatory is a lie......but the blood of Jesus is real!!!!!!

In his love,

Brian

[Guest top cat]

I havent fully read the Old Testament yet (have got as far as Job) but have read the entire New Testament and didnt find any mention of it directly.

Does anyone know the full history of it?

Ive read it is generally only believed to be a Roman Catholic belief, I go to a Presbyterian Church and have never heard it mentioned from the pulpit.

Anyone?

hi i,m originally from a r.c. background. purgatory is a basic docterine of the r,c. church it is not scriptural but it is the only hope roman catholics are given after this life as they know nothing of salvation in christ out side of a pelagian view of works . even after death they have no guarantee of heaven only this place called purgatory where they will have to stay until all their sins are dealth with and with the help of those still alive to pray for them and say masses for their soul. the grounds for the belief is found in 2nd macabees an aprochraphal book not part of the cannon of scripture. it has to do with the jews praying for their dead after a battle which was shown by scripture to be wrong "after death the judgement "not a seccond chance ...... it was made cannon law by the catholic church durin the middle ages and was one of the docterines that lither and the other reformers spoke out strongly against.............hope that was of some help ..................top cat

[Smalcald]

I agree nothing unclean will enter heaven.

Praise God that Christ did all of the work for us, we need nothing else to become totally clean.

Now, this has profound implications for the experience of heaven. Imagine who you are as a person--your particular set of habits, personality traits, quirks, etc. Many of these (if not most or all) are based in some way on sin. If we are (somehow) cleansed of all sin before entering heaven, we must enter heaven completely different people. We might even all be (eek!) the same! Even traits we normally consider virtues might mean nothing in a sin-free environment. Who will be the me (God-willing) that enters heaven?

Hi copper.

You know that is a very interesting concept and discussion (off topic but...).

We know that no sin exists in heaven, we also know that we get new bodies and a fully regenerated mind with no sinful thoughts, so how are we still we? I do think scripture is clear that we are unique individuals and will remain so through eternity. I think the example Paul gave was like comparing a seed to a tree. The seed has the genetic information and starts the tree, but if you didn't know a seed had anything to do with a tree, we would never be able to guess they were related.

I just wonder what that will be like, how about memories?

[Copper Scroll]

We know that no sin exists in heaven, we also know that we get new bodies and a fully regenerated mind with no sinful thoughts, so how are we still we?

I suppose it all depends on how we choose to define ourselves. Most of us define ourselves in a "worldly" way--by our relationships, our career, our ethnicity, our nationality, our material possessions, etc. I suppose, in heaven, these worldly definitions are meaningless. But if the worldliness of our self concepts are removed, what's left? What is the spirit or soul? I guess the issue is as mysterious as God him/herself.