Apostasy, have you seen it?

[eric]

Eric said earlier that he didn't believe that a true Christian could apostasize...I take it that he believes (certainly others do) that apostasy is a fatal state, meaning there is no returning from that state of being. I would be interested in hearing more discussion in this area

Hi David, I don't think that generally, that there is no returning from that state, unless you in that state when the Lord returns. I have known a few who have backslidden, but who have returned to the Lord and to all intents and purposes are living wholesme christian lives.

Jamie said in one post that I have a good church, well as a matter of fact I stopped going to church a long time ago, because of the change in the preaching of of the true gospel of Christ and the wishywashy sermons and the move to ecumenalism of which, for my own reason, am opposed to.

Yes, if the bible says there will be an apostacy before the man of lawlessness is revealed, you can bet your sox on it. People will fall away from the truth, because the truth is not being preached so some haven't heard it and they don't know what to believe.

Jesus said. If you abide in MY word, you are truly my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

David, my brother, the owner and the management and the administration of this message board including the watchmen and moderators only speak God's truth, even if we do challenge one another at times. I for one have learned more in the four years I've been a member of this message board, than all of the fifteen years I sat in any church. Our PMs are always open to the seekers of the truth.

you have a good day, David,

eric.

[David from New Bern]

"Jamie said in one post that I have a good church, well as a matter of fact I stopped going to church a long time ago, because of the change in the preaching of of the true gospel of Christ and the wishywashy sermons "

Eric... I'm still in pursuit of my subject matter and I am looking to understand where people are at in their understanding of apostasy and where do they see it. If your disgust with organized church has you living independent of its operation are you living in apostasy? The Scripture gives a direct command not to forsake the asssembly of yourselves (Hebrews 10:25). If we remove the NT understranding of the Body of Christ what is left in your understanding? Have you abandoned your calling to be the catalyst of change in your local body? There are certainly examples of unhealthy church's in the Scripture that God called individuals to be apart for the sake of steering the body back on course. Most of inspired Scripture is the result of problems being addressed. Billy Grahmam is quoted as saying, "If you find the perfect church. please don't join it, you will ruin it." Don't misread what I am saying. I want to hear you rational because I want to learn. I spent 10 years unattached to any church in a meaningful way while I was a Christian broadcaster. I am familiar with the disenchantment. Eric, help me understand are you truly a victim of apostasy or does God see it differently?

Edited February 28, 2006 by David from New Bern

[gypc]

Hi David...............

If your disgust with organized church has you living independent of its operation are you living in apostasy? The Scripture gives a direct command not to forsake the asssembly of yourselves (Hebrews 10:25).

Here's the problem........when do we leave?.and where do we go?

I was involved with the Word of Faith movement for about 20 years and I started to do a deep study of....................... just what do the leaders of the WOF believe? Is it another gospel?

What I found out was heart breaking. One example is.......they do not believe the cross of Christ was enough to atone for sin. Now if I would tell my pastor and he rejects what I say and continues in their teaching, what should we do? We have to go to the Word. Paul says some bold things to the Galations............

Gal 1: 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

David, it is a big problem...............we have to be led by the Spirit, rather we stay or go.

In his love,

Brian

[David from New Bern]

Hi David...............

If your disgust with organized church has you living independent of its operation are you living in apostasy? The Scripture gives a direct command not to forsake the asssembly of yourselves (Hebrews 10:25).

Here's the problem........when do we leave?.and where do we go?

I was involved with the Word of Faith movement for about 20 years and I started to do a deep study of....................... just what do the leaders of the WOF believe? Is it another gospel?

What I found out was heart breaking. One example is.......they do not believe the cross of Christ was enough to atone for sin. Now if I would tell my pastor and he rejects what I say and continues in their teaching, what should we do? We have to go to the Word. Paul says some bold things to the Galations............

Gal 1: 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

David, it is a big problem...............we have to be led by the Spirit, rather we stay or go.

In his love,

Brian

Doctrinal error must be confronted as a responsibiltiy of a believer, if the leadership is heretical its probably a counterfeit church. Which I believe WOF is. I don't think any discernment is required there. God opened your eyes be thankful. The discernment would be in finding another church family where you can be discipled and find your function in the body of believers. God has no orphans in His design.

[eric]

Hi David,

First of all I have no *disgust* with the organised church, as you put it. There are still some good places to to go to get fed the true gospel of the Lord, only they are hard to find. I spend a lot of time on Worthy and share my knowledge of the truth with the other brethren, thereby keeping in touch with what is going on in different denominational churches.

Your quote from Heb 10:25 was given by the aposltle at a given time for a given people for a given purpose, ie., some of the new jewish christians, were inclined to slip back the the Mosaic laws regarding animal sacrifice and so on.

Also, remember That when Paul spoke of the apostacy to the Thessalonian churh, he was only endorsing what Jesus said about the elect being led astray, because of the false christs and false prophets in Matt.24:24. when He was answering questions put to Him by the disciples.

Christ new He wouldn't be around much longer so He was making a strong point.

Today we have the NT with Christ's word written down in balck and white and available to all, so anyone now who claims to be a follower of Christ and then apostacises or backslides and is drawn away from Him couldn't have been truly born again in the first place.

Now your last question, " are you a victim of apostacy and does God see it differently.?" the answer to the first half...defintely No. Not at the present time and I pray that God strenghthens me enough to stay the same when the crunch comes. The second part? Well God knows my heart and I am not sure if He sees it differently or not.

It is good that you ask these questions and you won't be led astry by the nucleus of the committed christians on this board.

in Him,

eric.

Edited March 1, 2006 by eric

[BellaRose]

Bellarose...(very moving piece) do you mind if I use your poem in full or in part? If it becomes a published work I would be more than willing to give you credit. Who knows what door God could be opening?

David, sure you can use my poem.( Ferocious Faith)

I dont know what came over me to write such a poem, but i know the heart of God is also expressed in it. How grieved God must be to see His precious lambs being led away to slaughter by ferocious wolves dressed up as sheep. The sad thing is that some of these wolves really believe they are doing Gods work. Like i mention in the poem, I have experienced what i call Ferocious Faith. I think i posted my poem on worthy, called Cult of Confusion.

I thank God that He has kept me, by His grace. Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith and i hold on to the promise He gave that NO ONE WILL SNATCH ME OUT OF HIS HAND!

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path (psalm 119 v 105)

God bless Davd

Love Kerrie

[David from New Bern]

First of all I have no *disgust* with the organised church, as you put it. There are still some good places to to go to get fed the true gospel of the Lord, only they are hard to find. I spend a lot of time on Worthy and share my knowledge of the truth with the other brethren, thereby keeping in touch with what is going on in different denominational churches.

Eric, do you believe that church experience is optional in being an obedient Christian? You left me that impression when you said following a negative experience that you have substituted with this on-line fellowship.

[David from New Bern]

Now your last question, " are you a victim of apostacy and does God see it differently.?" the answer to the first half...defintely No. Not at the present time and I pray that God strenghthens me enough to stay the same when the crunch comes. The second part? Well God knows my heart and I am not sure if He sees it differently or not.

Eric, I was not suggesting here that you are an apostate. I was referring to the mistreatment you received at the hands of an apostate church. Please understand that.

[David from New Bern]

Eric, do you believe that church experience is optional in being an obedient Christian? You left me that impression when you said following a negative experience that you have substituted with this on-line fellowship.

[/quote

Are we not assemble together right now. This is the Church...when TWO OR THREE are gathered together. The Church is not a organization, it is an organism. The Church is something living. The Church is the coporate expression of Jesus Christ.

[eric]

Today we have the NT with Christ's word written down in balck and white and available to all, so anyone now who claims to be a follower of Christ and then apostacises or backslides and is drawn away from Him couldn't have been truly born again in the first place.

eric.

Let me ask you brother do you still sin? I assert that you do. When ever we move apart from the Life of Jesus then we have sinned. Does that mean that we are have not been "truly" born again as you say

If this is the case then we must call our Lord a liar. Why do I say this? He said to the CHURCH of such and such. You can not be a member of the Church, unless you are connected to the LIFE OF CHRIST. And if you are connected to the Life of Christ then surly you are born again.

Ruck,

There's a big difference between sinning and abandoning Christ's teachings and worshipping a different religion or another false Christ altegether than the one true Saviour. And yes, like everyone else I slip and trip, but that doesn't mean that I have backslidden or moved apart from the life I have chosen to serve Him and that I never had the born again experince, that completely changed my life around.

Some of us were born with gregarious disposition and need the company of others. I prefer a semi solitary life and am not inclined to a big social life. I am uncomfortable in large crowds. That doesn't mean to say I am anti social, just not a good conversationalist and have difficulty in making myself clearly understood. It takes me half an hour or more to type a post as long as this, because I have to think a lot about what I am going to say. In most of my posts I put IMO, because I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

A lot of people differ in their interpretation of the message Jesus was delivering to the churches in Rev, but that is another topic. I don't believe That Jesus was pointing His fingure at every attendee at these meetings, but more the way which the leadership was steering the gatherings of the people, such as misleading them.

hope this helps,

eric.