Suicide

[nebula]

Hello Nebula,

So why do I not know this nebula.

Openly Curious

Here is my response

[Guest meshak]

what is hell?

did eve commit a type of suicide?

http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/

[Ovedya]

In all honesty, I'm not sure I can hope to address some of the issues involved here, so you all keep going with your line of discussion, and please forgive me if this sidetracks you any. I just felt that I had to address the thining error in Openly Curious' statement:

The case concerning the believers who commit suicide, The word is clear in regards to believers faults and failures we are to come to the Father and confess them if a believer dies in the case of suicide then their soul has been lost eternally as they had no more time left within this life to confess their sin which was murder of self.

[Openly Curious]

Yes I do understand what it is to live in darkness whether you believe that or not but I also know what it is to live and walk in the light as He is in the light and trusting in Jesus is something one must cling to all the days of their lives. We can't make it without having faith and trust in Christ. But there is joy in knowing He is with me while I'm walking through this life even in my sufferings. For this I have so learned from my personal experiences in life and can only testify to others and try to comfort them with the comfort I received. For I cannot make you see or believe all I can do is share and simply say "Jesus Is The Answer" to your trials in life.

You are so missing the point of what I am saying.

[Openly Curious]

Hello Nebula,

So why do I not know this nebula.

Openly Curious

Here is my response

[Ovedya]

Tofu Brings Magic Happy

[Openly Curious]

In all honesty, I'm not sure I can hope to address some of the issues involved here, so you all keep going with your line of discussion, and please forgive me if this sidetracks you any. I just felt that I had to address the thining error in Openly Curious' statement:

The case concerning the believers who commit suicide, The word is clear in regards to believers faults and failures we are to come to the Father and confess them if a believer dies in the case of suicide then their soul has been lost eternally as they had no more time left within this life to confess their sin which was murder of self.

Ovedya

Perhaps you can clarify this a little more for me, Openly Curious, because it appears that this argument doesn't really "pan-out" logically. At least for me it doesn't anyway.

Your line of thinking here appears to indicate that if a believer commits a sin just before death, because that person does not have the opportunity to ask for forgiveness, God will condemn him to hell.

OC

I am saying if a believer commits a sin knowing it is wrong then to that believer it is sin. If a person in the case of suicide which suicide is wrong if they kill there self then they are condemned. Because there life is over if they succeed and take their own life there is no time left for that person to come to a godly sorrow that is why the sin of suicide will condemn their soul. But if you believe suicide is right then I guess along with some others you want see this no matter what I say.

Ovedya

Well, despite what some may believe, I personally don't believe that god makes any distinctions between one sin and another. So lying in God's eyes is just as grievous as murder, and disobedience to parents is the same as drunkenness. The only real degree given to sin is that of blasphemy of theHoly Spirit, which is essentially labeling the work of the Spirit as Satanic or demonic, like the Pharisees did.

OC

I along with you do not believe that their is any distinction between the many various types of sins as the ones you've given in your example above. I understand in mankinds eyes we see varying degrees of sin and judge them differantly among ourselves. But in God's view sin is sin their is not one sin that will make you blacker than the another one.

As far as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is concerned the Bible is very plain that it will never be forgiven if a person commits this sin. I think in my opinion that God is so harsh on this sin than all the others sins --is because the person has within there heart such a contempt or hatred and non-belief towards the very thing that could save their soul the very thing they need for eternal life is despised. Kinda like it was in the old testament story where they made light of the blood sacrifice in the temple and let the light go out God brought judgment on Eli's entire household because of it and I think it was because they made light of the blood sacrifice. For it was the blood of the bulls and goat they had to sacrifice yearly in order to be forgiven and they made light of it and were judged for it and it was the very thing they needed for forgiveness so God didn't take it lightly. Just my thought on it to clarify my train of thoughts for others.

I also for clarification here want to say all sin is sin all wrongdoing is sin. If you commit a sin you have a spot on your garment at that very moment until you come to a godly sorrow and repent and receive forgiveness for it. Until then your sin condemns you. No matter what that sin is that one commits you become dirty. When a person comes to Christ for the first time and receives forgiveness of sin they are indeed washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.

But spot can come back into our lives when we actually are weak within the temptations each of us go through in life as Satan uses these lustful temptations to get us dirty again. If we fall into them then we become dirty again why because we sinned again. The prodical son found himself in the hog pin didn't he even spent up all his money giving into his lustful desires which was his temptations of the flesh but when he comes to his self he has a repentent heart and returns to the Father's house as he was restored.

Now I am not implying here for the record that everyone can be a perfect little human being everything being a hunkie dorry

life. Because it don't work that way every christian will have times of failure (meaning they will give into their desires and sin)

And in these times of failure God giveth more grace if we'll come to him. Yes more grace to cover all of your "present" sins that you didn't commit prior to salvation. You only recieved grace to cover your "past" sins which were all erased. The sins from that point on has to be repented of and confessed as well in order to get more grace that we need to overcome We are to confess our faults and failures (which are our sins) to those who are "spiritual" among us (not everyone is spiritual among us so choose wisely who you confess to) so they can pray on our behalf and strengthen us restoring us back to God.

As those who are spiritual has to consider themselves when trying to restore them back to fellowhip because the person being helped could so influence them that they may or could wind up sinning themselves.

Ovedya

Well, we all know that we have remaining sin within us. We all have a sinfull nature. If you were suddenly to drop dead at theis very moment (Lord forbid), I would estimate that the liklihood of your having a sin that is yet unconfessed is very great. The same is true for me, and I would guess that the same is pretty much true for every believer. We simply cannot go about a single day without having commited an offense before God in one aspect or another. Therefore, if your scenario were true, then there would be no chance for any believer alive today, tomorrow, or ever, to inherit God's eternal kingdom.

OC

That my brother is your view. I do not believe we have remaining sin residing within us. However, I do believe we have a struggle between our sinful nature that we were born with and the divine nature that has been imparted to us from God known as the flesh and Spirit. As these two nature's war against one another within us as told in Galatians. And when we yield or give into our flesh (sin nature) we sin against God. But when we yield to God in times of temptations we have the fruit of the Spirit which will come forth from our lives and the curse of the law is not there as we have not sinned against God.

For clarification I do not get up every morning and go about my day looking to commit sins. I do not go through every day sinning against God as you seem to suggest that everyone does. So I want to take away the thin line you said was there. I get everyday seeking to shun the wrong and do the right. I get up and yield to the Spirit throughout my day. I get up and resist the devil not to go about sinning every day. I let the divine nature rule within my life not the sinful nature.

Within this struggle of the two natures within me there will be times when temptation will come my way I can count on it as the devil will make sure of it but I will in times of my own weaknesses give in to the desires of the sin nature and sin mess up and blow it. But I don't have to stay there in the mud just because I fell in I can get back up repent receive more grace dust myself off and start again. The Lord didn't tell us to Walk in the Spirit for nothing and you want fulfill the lust of the flesh.

When one falls and commits a sin and does not confess that fault then there is spot until one does and they need to be restored. In the case of suicide if it is wrong and sinful to do it then that believer who commits and gives into this type of temptation and sin condemns themselves because of their yielding to unrighteousness.

Ovedya

Another problem with your statement is that the Bible only describes one unforgivable sin; that is, as I stated, the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only sin that is unforgiven. However, you appear to be outlining another unforgivable sin - suicide. Yet it is not that God will not forgive this sin, in your estimation it is God who cannot forgive this sin - because the believer doesn't have the opportunity to repent. So in reality, if your argument were correct, God would not be able to forgive any sin that remained at the time of any believer's death - whether that death is by suicide or, say, by a plane crash.

OC

No and for the record I am not outlining another unforgiveable sin that is your thinking as I have clarified my position above on the matter of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I am for the record saying if there is any sin between you and your relationship with God that has crept in then your sin condemns you. All sin "except" blasphemy can be forgiven but you have to confess them until then your sin condemns you.

Ovedya

What if you or I were in an airplane that was going down (Again, heaven forbid that this should ever happen to either of us.)? What if you or I, before the plane crashed, suddenly blurted out a curse word; or what if we became angry with someone and punched him in the face? Then the plane crashed, killing us. Well, since we committed a sin, and since we did not have opportunity to ask for forgivness, you believe that God would commit us to eternal torment?

OC

Again I do not get up everyday as I said above to fulfill the desires of my sinful nature but I get up to walk in the Spirit yielding myself to righteousness and holy living in the sight of God and if I claim to be a christian why would I have cursing on my mind especially in the midst of a plane crash If one walks in the Spirit they would have the fruit of the Spirit present and would not want to punch someone in the face these are all examples and characteristics of sinners not the characteristics of christians who are submitting their wills to God yielded and walking in the spirit. The spirit would not lead me to curse nor lead me to punch someone in the face no matter where I was at. If we walk in the Spirit we would have the fruit of the Spirit coming forth which is the imparted nature of God. If one allow sin to be between them and God their sin condemns them if they should slip out of this world.

Ovedya

That is not the God of the Bible. That is not the God that I know, love, and serve.

OC

Do you get up everyday Ovedya seeking to do wrong in God's sight or do you seek to get up everyday and serve the Lord doing the things that are right in his eyes. If so then there are many days that you do not sin and have not yielded to the temptations that Satan brings within your day. Unless you don't resist the temptations of devil that come your way you just give into the desires of the sinful nature with no fight. If that is the case then your sin condemns you. If you get up and give yourself to God yielding to His spirit then you are walking a life pleasing to God without spot or wrinkle why because you yield to him every single day because you love him and the fruit of the Spirit will be seen by all and not the sin nature.

This is the word of the God of the bible. I do not get up every day to be grievous to the Spirit of God for I want it to remain in my life.

Edited March 21, 2006 by Openly Curious

[Ovedya]

I am saying if a believer commits a sin knowing it is wrong then to that believer it is sin. If a person in the case of suicide which suicide is wrong if they kill there self then they are condemned. Because there life is over if they succeed and take their own life there is no time left for that person to come to a godly sorrow that is why the sin of suicide will condemn their soul. But if you believe suicide is right then I guess along with some others you want see this no matter what I say.

Did I ever say that suicide was right? Essentially you just repeated what you wrote earlier, so I'll respond to your other statments.

I along with you do not believe that their is any distinction between the many various types of sins as the ones you've given in your example above. I understand in mankinds eyes we see varying degrees of sin and judge them differantly among ourselves. But in God's view sin is sin their is not one sin that will make you blacker than the another one.

As far as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is concerned the Bible is very plain that it will never be forgiven if a person commits this sin. I think in my opinion that God is so harsh on this sin than all the others sins --is because the person has within there heart such a contempt or hatred and non-belief towards the very thing that could save their soul the very thing they need for eternal life is despised. Kinda like it was in the old testament story where they made light of the blood sacrifice in the temple and let the light go out God brought judgment on Eli's entire household because of it and I think it was because they made light of the blood sacrifice. For it was the blood of the bulls and goat they had to sacrifice yearly in order to be forgiven and they made light of it and were judged for it and it was the very thing they needed for forgiveness so God didn't take it lightly. Just my thought on it to clarify my train of thoughts for others.

I also for clarification here want to say all sin is sin all wrongdoing is sin. If you commit a sin you have a spot on your garment at that very moment until you come to a godly sorrow and repent and receive forgiveness for it. Until then your sin condemns you. No matter what that sin is that one commits you become dirty. When a person comes to Christ for the first time and receives forgiveness of sin they are indeed washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.

But spot can come back into our lives when we actually are weak within the temptations each of us go through in life as Satan uses these lustful temptations to get us dirty again. If we fall into them then we become dirty again why because we sinned again. The prodical son found himself in the hog pin didn't he even spent up all his money giving into his lustful desires which was his temptations of the flesh but when he comes to his self he has a repentent heart and returns to the Father's house as he was restored.

Now I am not implying here for the record that everyone can be a perfect little human being everything being a hunkie dorry

life. Because it don't work that way every christian will have times of failure (meaning they will give into their desires and sin)

And in these times of failure God giveth more grace if we'll come to him. Yes more grace to cover all of your "present" sins that you didn't commit prior to salvation. You only recieved grace to cover your "past" sins which were all erased. The sins from that point on has to be repented of and confessed as well in order to get more grace that we need to overcome We are to confess our faults and failures (which are our sins) to those who are "spiritual" among us (not everyone is spiritual among us so choose wisely who you confess to) so they can pray on our behalf and strengthen us restoring us back to God.

As those who are spiritual has to consider themselves when trying to restore them back to fellowhip because the person being helped could so influence them that they may or could wind up sinning themselves.

What you appear to be outlining here is the loss of salvation. Do you believe that if a Christian sins immediately before death, and does not take care of confessing that sin and asking forgiveness, that that Christian is doomed to eternal perdition?

That my brother is your view. I do not believe we have remaining sin residing within us. However, I do believe we have a struggle between our sinful nature that we were born with and the divine nature that has been imparted to us from God known as the flesh and Spirit. As these two nature's war against one another within us as told in Galatians. And when we yield or give into our flesh (sin nature) we sin against God. But when we yield to God in times of temptations we have the fruit of the Spirit which will come forth from our lives and the curse of the law is not there as we have not sinned against God.

For clarification I do not get up every morning and go about my day looking to commit sins. I do not go through every day sinning against God as you seem to suggest that everyone does. So I want to take away the thin line you said was there. I get everyday seeking to shun the wrong and do the right. I get up and yield to the Spirit throughout my day. I get up and resist the devil not to go about sinning every day. I let the divine nature rule within my life not the sinful nature.

I did not suggest that everyone goes through their day sinning against God. You mischaracterized my statement above. I said that no person can get through a single day without committing a sin in one way or another - whether that is because of something they did or because of a thinking error (murder, lust, anger, etc.)

Within this struggle of the two natures within me there will be times when temptation will come my way I can count on it as the devil will make sure of it but I will in times of my own weaknesses give in to the desires of the sin nature and sin mess up and blow it. But I don't have to stay there in the mud just because I fell in I can get back up repent receive more grace dust myself off and start again. The Lord didn't tell us to Walk in the Spirit for nothing and you want fulfill the lust of the flesh.

When one falls and commits a sin and does not confess that fault then there is spot until one does and they need to be restored. In the case of suicide if it is wrong and sinful to do it then that believer who commits and gives into this type of temptation and sin condemns themselves because of their yielding to unrighteousness.

Again, if a person dies with a single sin, and does not have the opportunity to repent and confess that sin, will he suffer eternal perdition or not?

No and for the record I am not outlining another unforgiveable sin that is your thinking as I have clarified my position above on the matter of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I am for the record saying if there is any sin between you and your relationship with God that has crept in then your sin condemns you. All sin "except" blasphemy can be forgiven but you have to confess them until then your sin condemns you.

However, you are still outlining an unforgivable sin! One sin - that of blasphemy - will not be forgiven by God, and the other sin - one that has not been repented of before death - cannot be forgiven by God. The first sin of blasphemy is one that God will not forgive and the other is the one that God can not forgive.

Actually, what you appear to be saying here is that God's forgiveness hinges upon the believers' actions, and not upon the shed blood of Christ. You would have to believe that, at the time a believer sins he has lost his salvation completely, and must again repent and receive the blood of Christ in order to be restored to the position of being saved again. In other words a believer must crucify the Lord again and again, day by day, even minute by minute, in order to stay saved. And even then salvation is not guaranteed because he might commit some sin and not have the opportunity to ask forgiveness.

Ovedya

What if you or I were in an airplane that was going down (Again, heaven forbid that this should ever happen to either of us.)? What if you or I, before the plane crashed, suddenly blurted out a curse word; or what if we became angry with someone and punched him in the face? Then the plane crashed, killing us. Well, since we committed a sin, and since we did not have opportunity to ask for forgivness, you believe that God would commit us to eternal torment?

OC

Again I do not get up everyday as I said above to fulfill the desires of my sinful nature but I get up to walk in the Spirit yielding myself to righteousness and holy living in the sight of God and if I claim to be a christian why would I have cursing on my mind especially in the midst of a plane crash ohmy.gif If one walks in the Spirit they would have the fruit of the Spirit present and would not want to punch someone in the face these are all examples and characteristics of sinners not the characteristics of christians who are submitting their wills to God yielded and walking in the spirit. The spirit would not lead me to curse nor lead me to punch someone in the face no matter where I was at. If we walk in the Spirit we would have the fruit of the Spirit coming forth which is the imparted nature of God. If one allow sin to be between them and God their sin condemns them if they should slip out of this world.

This is still not answering the question. Yes or no, if a man sins immediately before death is he condemned to eternal perdition?

[Openly Curious]

I am saying if a believer commits a sin knowing it is wrong then to that believer it is sin. If a person in the case of suicide which suicide is wrong if they kill there self then they are condemned. Because there life is over if they succeed and take their own life there is no time left for that person to come to a godly sorrow that is why the sin of suicide will condemn their soul. But if you believe suicide is right then I guess along with some others you want see this no matter what I say.

Did I ever say that suicide was right? Essentially you just repeated what you wrote earlier, so I'll respond to your other statments.

I along with you do not believe that their is any distinction between the many various types of sins as the ones you've given in your example above. I understand in mankinds eyes we see varying degrees of sin and judge them differantly among ourselves. But in God's view sin is sin their is not one sin that will make you blacker than the another one.

As far as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is concerned the Bible is very plain that it will never be forgiven if a person commits this sin. I think in my opinion that God is so harsh on this sin than all the others sins --is because the person has within there heart such a contempt or hatred and non-belief towards the very thing that could save their soul the very thing they need for eternal life is despised. Kinda like it was in the old testament story where they made light of the blood sacrifice in the temple and let the light go out God brought judgment on Eli's entire household because of it and I think it was because they made light of the blood sacrifice. For it was the blood of the bulls and goat they had to sacrifice yearly in order to be forgiven and they made light of it and were judged for it and it was the very thing they needed for forgiveness so God didn't take it lightly. Just my thought on it to clarify my train of thoughts for others.

I also for clarification here want to say all sin is sin all wrongdoing is sin. If you commit a sin you have a spot on your garment at that very moment until you come to a godly sorrow and repent and receive forgiveness for it. Until then your sin condemns you. No matter what that sin is that one commits you become dirty. When a person comes to Christ for the first time and receives forgiveness of sin they are indeed washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.

But spot can come back into our lives when we actually are weak within the temptations each of us go through in life as Satan uses these lustful temptations to get us dirty again. If we fall into them then we become dirty again why because we sinned again. The prodical son found himself in the hog pin didn't he even spent up all his money giving into his lustful desires which was his temptations of the flesh but when he comes to his self he has a repentent heart and returns to the Father's house as he was restored.

Now I am not implying here for the record that everyone can be a perfect little human being everything being a hunkie dorry

life. Because it don't work that way every christian will have times of failure (meaning they will give into their desires and sin)

And in these times of failure God giveth more grace if we'll come to him. Yes more grace to cover all of your "present" sins that you didn't commit prior to salvation. You only recieved grace to cover your "past" sins which were all erased. The sins from that point on has to be repented of and confessed as well in order to get more grace that we need to overcome We are to confess our faults and failures (which are our sins) to those who are "spiritual" among us (not everyone is spiritual among us so choose wisely who you confess to) so they can pray on our behalf and strengthen us restoring us back to God.

As those who are spiritual has to consider themselves when trying to restore them back to fellowhip because the person being helped could so influence them that they may or could wind up sinning themselves.

[50_Cent's_dog]

This is what I believe on the matter. I believe when we get saved, all past sins are under the blood. I also believe any sins we commit through ignorance from that day forward are under the blood. I do not believe pre-meditated wilful sins are automatically covered by the blood. In the Old Testament God mentioned that there were animal sacrifices for the atonement of various sins done in ignorace. When speeking of wilful or presumptuous sins, he said such a person would be cut off from his people. In Romans, the Bible says that when we sin wilfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice for that sin. It doesn't say we cannot ask forgiveness and receive it, but the blood that saved us doesn't cover unconfessed wilful sins. That is why I believe if a person commits suicide, whether they be a Christian or not, they will wind up in hell. I also believe if a person commits murder and dies without having confessed his or her sin, whether they be a Christian or not, they will go to hell. On the other hand, if they simply get angry and say something they shouldn't have, they would not go to hell. It was not a pre-meditated sin. Once God brings the sin to their attention, at that point they must confess it.

Hey Butero,

Your theology just sounds hard to me. It is like you need a spiritual calculator to figuer out what sins God accepts and what sins God will not forgive you of. It just sounds really stressful to me. For me I believe that when Jesus died on the cross He died for all of my sins past, present and future. He forgave me when I received Jesus as Lord and Saviour 10 years ago by faith alone. Now I just have to worry about my fellowship with him. I don't worry about going to Hell anymore but being pleasing to God. Remaining in the Vine and bearing fruit. Again the fruit doesn't save but faith alone does.