Not given to wine, not given to much wine

[David from New Bern]

1 Timothy 3:3, 8 In Paul's statements to Timothy about church structure he determines that the among the qualifications for a bishop or overseer that he be given to no wine. Among the qualifications for a deacon it says that he is not to be given to much wine. Why? How do we apply this to our setting in the modern church. And is this a permissive statement to those being led?

[Smalcald]

I think both are saying the same thing. On the Bishop it does not say given to no wine, it says not given to wine, which means simply you don't want a big boozer leading the congregation.

I think sometimes we can go overboard picking this stuff out, but the bible is wisdom and is common sense. Basically I don't want to see my pastor or my deacons out at happy hour every week or hanging out drunk. It is not a good testimony, and it makes sense what Paul is saying.

[mike2]

1 Timothy 3:3, 8 In Paul's statements to Timothy about church structure he determines that the among the qualifications for a bishop or overseer that he be given to no wine. Among the qualifications for a deacon it says that he is not to be given to much wine. Why? How do we apply this to our setting in the modern church. And is this a permissive statement to those being led?

Depending on the spiritual maturity of the people being led, it could be a permissive statement.

Either way though, it is saying ...Dont get drunk, because.....

Which I think is really the issue.

1 Cor.6:12 says we can do anything we want, but it could control us.

Unfortunately, a lot of us being led, don't get in to the Word or take the time to understand it.

As a result of that, it is easier to be safe than sorry, and thats why some churches have a no drinking rule.

That, of course, has scared a lot of people away from the church!

1Timothy3:2 states that the Bishop must be above reproach. Not drinking, of course would lend to his credibility in leading, counseling, and teaching, and would remove the exposure to the temptations that come with drunkeness.

I think of 1 Cor 8:10,11 in the context of setting an example. With a higher position comes more responsibilities. One of those responsibilities recquires that if there is a possibility that what you do, could lead someone that is weak, into a situation that they cannot handle, even though you yourself have no problems spiritually or physically with it, you don't do it.

I'm also thinking that someone in the position of Bishop in the early church would be far enough along in their faith, that the pleasures of wine should be insignificant compared to the pleasures of realizing a fullfilling Christian life.

As man goes , it is percieved that the higher the position of leading, the better the example should be. It is better not to drink at all because of the temptations that come with too much.

We dont need wine, we dont have to have it, we chose to have it, and it is a good example of discipline and strength to chose not to have it.

I believe that it is also possible that at some point we have to be able to "mingle" with people that need to hear about God and sometimes the only way that we may get in a position where some people will feel comfortable enough with us to listen to us, is if we ARE NOT percieved as a stick in the mud. (Jesus is a great example of this)

Maybe a conversation..... over a glass of something?

The Bishop was considered as the overseer, probably more in tune with running the church and ensuring proper teaching, the deacons where more like the front line soldiers getting in their and "mingling". I'm sure that there is a defining line that when a deacon became a Bishop, he would have to had to been exhibiting a certain behaviour (same as today)

We do have to be aware of 1 Cor. 8:10,11 though

As we grow in our faith and God moves us in to new areas of our life we have to be aware of how our actions influence the people that are in our lives and we have to always ask ourselves if it is what Christ would want us to do,maybe that recquires no drinking.

Interestingly I compared a number of different bibles on this verse and they do differ from 'not drinking at all', to, 'not being a heavy drinker"

[other one]

The Greek words for wine in the two verses are different words. In verse 8 it basically means wine. In verse 3 the word means drawn to wine. They are basically saying the same thing. The bible dose not tell us not to drink wine, but does tell us many times to not drink a lot, or let it controll our lives.

[abbershay]

1Ti 5:23 Drink water no longer, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake, and for your frequent infirmities.

Dont be a drunk....... also dont eat to much....

Pro 23:2 and put a knife to your throat, if you are a man given to appetite.

[David from New Bern]

Growing up in the church of God they believed in no consumption (T-totalers). They had frequent bake sales. Someone pointed that vanilla extract used in the cakes was like 35% alcohol. I remember the pastor banning its use in cakes and pies for the sales. It seemed like sister Martha's cake lost its luster after that..........

[abbershay]

You sure dont give the much creedence to the power of the Holy Spirit.

One drink is not going to make you a drunkard... Its not even the first step really , you try to make christians out as weaker than the world.

[Iryssa]

You sure dont give the much creedence to the power of the Holy Spirit.

One drink is not going to make you a drunkard... Its not even the first step really , you try to make christians out as weaker than the world.

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

Let's turn this around. Can you give me any good reason why a person that doesn't drink alcohol should start?

I don't think anyone here is telling you that you NEED to start drinking alcohol. The point is don't try to convince those of us who believe it's okay in moderation that we NEED to stop. I see no reason why a Christian who has no prior or present problem with alchol or drunkenness should NOT have a glass of wine with dinner or a Guiness with some friends.

[mike2]

Growing up in the church of God they believed in no consumption (T-totalers). They had frequent bake sales. Someone pointed that vanilla extract used in the cakes was like 35% alcohol. I remember the pastor banning its use in cakes and pies for the sales. It seemed like sister Martha's cake lost its luster after that..........

I think this is a good example of a misguided pastor and I would probabaly, within myself, question other decisions he might make.

I think you have started another thread regarding the authority of pastors this might be food for thought.

[mike2]

You sure dont give the much creedence to the power of the Holy Spirit.

One drink is not going to make you a drunkard... Its not even the first step really , you try to make christians out as weaker than the world.

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

Let's turn this around. Can you give me any good reason why a person that doesn't drink alcohol should start?

I don't think anyone here is telling you that you NEED to start drinking alcohol. The point is don't try to convince those of us who believe it's okay in moderation that we NEED to stop. I see no reason why a Christian who has no prior or present problem with alchol or drunkenness should NOT have a glass of wine with dinner or a Guiness with some friends.

Actually Iryssa, I never did condemn anyone in this thread for having an occassional drink. I have no scripture to support such a position. I just gave a reason why I don't drink and had someone come back and say that my thinking was wrong in that I wasn't trusting in the power of God enough. That's why I asked for a good reason to start drinking. If you want to drink in moderation, more power to you. I just know myself enough to know that if I ever started and got into a place of depression, I would likely start abusing alcohol so I stay away from it.

Good for you Butero

We that drink though, must always keep in mind WHEN we are drinking, with Whom, and HOW much.

We are setting the example and it is our responibility to know when it is apropriate.