Does anyone know any verses that support that the church will be gone

[EricH]

None of these passages state that the church will be taken. All they state is that it will be protected or preserved through the wrath

[yomotalking]

I think I'LL look her up, too!

[EricH]

Moved this from "Hebrew Roots" in the Doctrinal Forum to "Eschatology" in the Prophecy Forum. It is more appropriate here

[littlejoe]

My friends,I was taught the church has four e.g.different meanings 1 a building, an assembly of people of faith,regardless of their tradition they walk in, for example,Catholic churches Protestant Churches or indiviual chuches St John's orSt Paul's. It also means a called out people, and the one I like the best, The Body OF Christ. with each indiviual member,with Christ at it"s Head. So if I be the foot,and you the heart,I cannot do without you,and because Christ is The head,neither of us can do without Him. If you are by theGrace of God in Christ, then you are my brothers and sisters in Christ. If you are not in Christ you are in trouble. This is something I was taught as a kid CHURCH. Ch-the first two letters in the name of Christ UR that 's us,Ch the last letters of the word church. Jesus said I am the Alpha and Omega. the beginning and the end. The Author and Finisher of our faith, interesting that the word Church is spelled that way don't you think?

[Floatingaxe]

None of these passages state that the church will be taken. All they state is that it will be protected or preserved through the wrath

This is outright false.

If you believe this, you are reading a version that is incorrect. The bible does not state such a thing in regards to the tribulation to come of 7 years.

General trials and tribulation yes, but not THE tribulation, which has an entirely different character.

Amen!

[Floatingaxe]

Suzana,

I have never believed in a rapture..somehow I missed that teaching..

I have always believed we would endure to the and be overcomers...

this is not a scripture reference but you might want to stick "1830's Margret MacDonald " into your Google and read some history on her..

It was out of her experience that the rapture theory came about...

Keep asking questions...until God has settled the issues in your heart...

OK,

Absolutely false! No one devised the fact that scripture talks about the removal of the Church, that the Church will escape the days of wrath. This Margaret MacDonald idea is just her own meanderings.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Not a new idea.

[larryt]

1 Thess 4. Revelation 4:1

The church is not mentioned after Revelation 4:1. Revelation is fairly chronological with a break in the middle going back to repeat the events again in more detail and additional details.

Curious then, who are the people of the 5th seal (Rev 6:9-11) who have not yet joined the others at the heavenly alter who have been slain "becuase of the word of God and the testimony they maintained"? Those already there from through-out history are waiting for God to avenge their martyrdom and His response is wait a little longer until the number of their fellow brothers, who will be killed as they had been, are completed. Who are these remaining people who will give thier lives for God *after* the events of the 5th seal?

And see next quote also...

One would have to understand the character of the 70th week of Daniel, which is what this tribulation period to come is.

It is not for the Christian, the church. It is for the unbelieving Jew and gentiles.

Thanx for bringing up Daniel's 70th week. Becuase in Mathew 24:22, Jesus states that the days of great tribulation will not start until the middle of Daniel's 70th week (Dan 9:27, Mat 24:15,21). And He also says those days of tribulation will be "cut short" for the sake of the Elect. The word "elect" is always used in the NT to refer to the Church. It is from the Gk eklektous which is the same word used on in the following verse (24) where He warns that false prohets and false Christs will appear, working great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect () - if that were possible."

So here again, I see the Church (eklectous, eklasia) mentioned not only *in* the days of tribulation (which don't start until after the Abomination of Desolation which occurs in the middle of the last week), but *after* the days of tribulation which are "cut short" for their benefit.

Noah was taken out of the flood... into the ark... in the same manner we are taken from the earth, to heaven, while this goes on. Enoch was taken off the earth before the flood as well. So it has already happened. We are his bride. Is a groom to be ever persecute severely his own wife to be? Absolutely not. Revelation chapters 2 - 3 discuss that those who love the Lord, like the church at philadephia, will be saved OUT OF, FROM, this time of trouble.

Yes, Noah was protected during those days of God's wrath. And scripture is clear that His children never suffer His wrath. But where is the days of tribulation defined in scripture as God's wrath? I've looked for it and can't find it. I think that it is more likely the wrath of man. By falsely equating Daniel's last week with the days of tribulation, and assuming that the days of tribulation are God's wrath, you can then easily claim that the Chruch will not be here for the entire seven years. But, as scripture is clear on, the days of tribulation don't start until 3-1/2 years into the last week. And even then they are cut short for the Church's sake. Personally, from OT scripture on the Day of the LORD, the Olivett Discourse, and Revelation chapter 6, I believe that the time of God's wrath occurs after the days of great tribultation (wrath of men) is cut short. That is what the Church will not experience. That is why they can be mentioned by Jesus as being *in* the days of great tribulation.

Something to consider ...

Hi Shlomo,

There are many here who make concluding statements here and try to back up their apriori conclusions.

Here is another one for those that believe in the pretrib rapture.

Who are the remnant of the woman in Rev. 12 that the great red dragon goes to persecute after he is prevented from persecution the woman?

Re 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Hint: Seed - Christ, Remnant - left over/surviving christians?

LT

[cjrose]

There will be new Christians after we leave. More will come to him after the rapture and during the tribulation. Its the time for second chances. These people are not officially of the bride, but wedding guests like OT saints are wedding guests. If they live through the tribulation, they will go on in their mortal bodies into the millennium and continue to populate the earth.

When someone talks about "cutting short" the tribulation, that is incorrect. It will be a full 7 years. What it means is not days as in 24 hour periods, but day as in light... daylight.... for example... if an eclipse happens, the "day" is shortened and darkeness comes. Light is blocked.

Anyone who says the church will be here does not know what this 7 years is all about. It is not for the church, but it is the wrath of God on an unbelieving world. God takes his own out of such things. He took Noah out 7 days before the rain. He went into the ark, just like the church will go into the rapture and be with the Lord.

So true Lawyer, and those that become Christians will have to go underground to survive and when they do, they will be populating in paradise.

But those 7 years will be, well I really can't imagine how horrible it will be. I just pray I stay on gaurd and in my armor so I won't have to go through it.

[Floatingaxe]

There will be new Christians after we leave. More will come to him after the rapture and during the tribulation. Its the time for second chances. These people are not officially of the bride, but wedding guests like OT saints are wedding guests. If they live through the tribulation, they will go on in their mortal bodies into the millennium and continue to populate the earth.

When someone talks about "cutting short" the tribulation, that is incorrect. It will be a full 7 years. What it means is not days as in 24 hour periods, but day as in light... daylight.... for example... if an eclipse happens, the "day" is shortened and darkeness comes. Light is blocked.

Anyone who says the church will be here does not know what this 7 years is all about. It is not for the church, but it is the wrath of God on an unbelieving world. God takes his own out of such things. He took Noah out 7 days before the rain. He went into the ark, just like the church will go into the rapture and be with the Lord.

So true Lawyer, and those that become Christians will have to go underground to survive and when they do, they will be populating in paradise.

But those 7 years will be, well I really can't imagine how horrible it will be. I just pray I stay on gaurd and in my armor so I won't have to go through it.

[Yahsway]

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation

Rev 7:9

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could Number, of ALL nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands crying with a loud voice, saying "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

verse 13

Then one of the elders answered saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes and where do they come from?"

verse 14

And I said to him, "Sir, you know," So he said to me,

"These are the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, ect....