The Penal Theory of the Atonement

[endure4salvation]

Jesusisgod2, who'se sins were paid for and when was this payment made?

Was it every person to ever live's sin, or just a few people's sins?

[JesusisGod2]

Hi endure,

I have to run right now (its bowling night) but I will try and answer this later.

Jesus paid the penalty of the law, which when a law is broken the required payment is death.

Gotta go and God bless.

[Guest im4him]

Jesusisgod2,

I don't think that endure4salvation is discussing the fact that WE were bought. He is discussing whether our SINS were bought. There is a BIG difference. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that WE were not bought for a price, to be slaves to righteousness or return to being slaves for sin.

Mrs Mac writes:

One has to accept that the payment was paid in full for it to be recognised by God as paid .

If one has to accept that the payment was paid in full for it to be recognised by God as paid then that makes the atonement provisional. If provisional, then it wasn't a payment at all. If it wasn't a payment, then there is no basis for a penal payment theory as a penal payment theory requires all sins be paid for at the cross.

If all sins were paid for at the cross then all must be saved since unbelief is a sin, i.e. Universalism.

If sins were "paid" for then salvation isn't by Grace through faith, but by merit of payment.

If the idea of Penal Payment is to work and bring a legal satisfaction to God's justice, then all (the world) must remain free from any and all obligation and punishment from the point of atonement on. Once again Universalism.

Another conclusion that it brings us to is that there is no mercy or withholding of punishment. If Jesus was punished for the world's sins then the idea of mercy is a false concept. There was no mercy or withholding of punishment as it was taken out on Jesus.

Payment also denies pardon or forgiveness. If we are found guilty of something, there are two options available. Forgiveness or punishment. Pardon or payment. If payment has already been made, justice is served and there is no reason that there should be any further obligation. If the fine were already paid, there is nothing to forgive. If a payment or punishment is demanded then there was no forgiveness or pardon. Logically, payment and punishment are the opposite of forgiveness and pardon.

The payment of those wages was paid to Jesus Christ on the cross. God loved us so much that He arranged for Jesus to receive our wages.

If the wages of sin is death and Jesus received this payment on the cross, then why is He risen.

The payment for sins is to be eternally cut off from God in a place called Hell.

If Jesus recevied the payment then why is He now sitting at the right hand of Father rather than enduring hell for us?

[Mrs Mac]

Jesusisgod2,

I don't think that endure4salvation is discussing the fact that WE were bought. He is discussing whether our SINS were bought. There is a BIG difference. I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that WE were not bought for a price, to be slaves to righteousness or return to being slaves for sin.

Mrs Mac writes:

One has to accept that the payment was paid in full for it to be recognised by God as paid .

If one has to accept that the payment was paid in full for it to be recognised by God as paid then that makes the atonement provisional. If provisional, then it wasn't a payment at all. If it wasn't a payment, then there is no basis for a penal payment theory as a penal payment theory requires all sins be paid for at the cross.

If all sins were paid for at the cross then all must be saved since unbelief is a sin, i.e. Universalism.

If sins were "paid" for then salvation isn't by Grace through faith, but by merit of payment.

If the idea of Penal Payment is to work and bring a legal satisfaction to God's justice, then all (the world) must remain free from any and all obligation and punishment from the point of atonement on. Once again Universalism.

Another conclusion that it brings us to is that there is no mercy or withholding of punishment. If Jesus was punished for the world's sins then the idea of mercy is a false concept. There was no mercy or withholding of punishment as it was taken out on Jesus.

Payment also denies pardon or forgiveness. If we are found guilty of something, there are two options available. Forgiveness or punishment. Pardon or payment. If payment has already been made, justice is served and there is no reason that there should be any further obligation. If the fine were already paid, there is nothing to forgive. If a payment or punishment is demanded then there was no forgiveness or pardon. Logically, payment and punishment are the opposite of forgiveness and pardon.

The payment of those wages was paid to Jesus Christ on the cross. God loved us so much that He arranged for Jesus to receive our wages.

If the wages of sin is death and Jesus received this payment on the cross, then why is He risen.

The payment for sins is to be eternally cut off from God in a place called Hell.

If Jesus recevied the payment then why is He now sitting at the right hand of Father rather than enduring hell for us?

The wages of sin is death means that death is what we deserved. If we accept Jesus as our Lord, His death on the cross became our death. He was forsaken by the Father for a time and that is what would happen to us if Jesus had not gone to the cross in our place.

John 3:16 denies universalism.

To be honest, I have been sitting here for ages thinking about this and I find this subject quite complicated. For one thing I have never heard of the "Penal Theory of Atonement" before. Perhaps I shouldn't have jumped in with my "wages"

Ethlyn

[AFaceInTheCrowd]

GOD's ways aren't our ways..GOD took a" diamond "and bought "dirt".what i'm saying is that GOD took the most precious thing to HIM,HIS SON,and purchased me,a sinner lower than dirt.this is grace....

[Adstar]

Hi Endure

Jesusisgod2, who'se sins were paid for and when was this payment made?

Good question. I am not sure about people who lived before the time of Jesus? After Jesus was resurrected the people who have their sins paid for by His death are all the people who believe in Him and follow Him.

To accept Jesus is to accept His gift.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[AFaceInTheCrowd]

didnt their faith in GOD keep them until CHRIST brought them up from paradise?

[endure4salvation]

The wages of sin is death means that death is what we deserved. If we accept Jesus as our Lord, His death on the cross became our death. He was forsaken by the Father for a time and that is what would happen to us if Jesus had not gone to the cross in our place.

Mrs Mac, I must ask you a question about what you said here.

If Jesus was forsaken by God, then how can Jesus be God in the flesh? To be seperated from God would mean that there were at least 2 different gods, right? You can't be forsaken from yourself, can you? When Jesus said, "My Father, why have you forsaken me?" He wasn't saying that He was no longer God, but He was quoting Psalm 22 which is a detailed prophecy of the crufixation....they pierce my hands and my feet...He was doing the same thing He did when He went up before the temple in Nazarath and opened the scroll of Isaiah and said "Today, this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing...."

Does this make sense?

[endure4salvation]

Jesusisgod2, who'se sins were paid for and when was this payment made?

Good question. I am not sure about people who lived before the time of Jesus? After Jesus was resurrected the people who have their sins paid for by His death are all the people who believe in Him and follow Him.

To accept Jesus is to accept His gift.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar, it is good to see you posting here...praise the Lord indeed!

I can't remember where the verse is in the NT (I would guess Romans or Galatians), but it basically says that those under the Law were saved in the EXACT same way that those under grace are....by grace through faith.

I think that people make a bigger deal about that then needs be, but that is JMHO.

Basically, if Jesus paid for sins, let us compare this with Scripture:

1 John 2:2

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here we clearly see that all sins for the whole world were taken care of by Jesus.

Revelation 21:8

...but the vile, the unbelieving...their part will be in the lake of burning sulfur...

Here we clearly see that unbelief is a sin. If we take the above two verses, we come up with ALL MEN AND WOMEN EVER BEING SAVED!!! It has been pointed out in this thread that universalism would be true if the penal theory is accurate.

[sagz4Christ]

Does there have to be a complete logical and understandable answer to every question about God's character? How can we as humans dare to attribute human, finite thought prcesses to an infinate God? Are His ways not much loftier than ours? If everything about God's Character and mode of operation was written in the Bible, then what happens to this verse?

Deut 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law."

Please, let us not get into a debate over the law again. I picked this verse to show that there ARE some things about God that He choose NOT to reveal to us. They belong to Him. It is not for us to conjure up in our minds something that makes sense when nothing is there. Wars have been fought this way.

Is it not enough that Christ died for you? Is it not enough that God loves you so much to allow it? In all honesty, what does it matter what theory is ascribed to atonement? Why can't it just be that? He atoneded for OUR sins. He was the propiciation (sp) for our sins. He stepped in fron of the bullet of death that was intended by rights for us. How else do you want to say it? Why do we have to argue about why and how? Can't we just accept it for the miracle it is?

Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying we should shut our minds off and become mindless creatures of habit! If we did, what kind of fellowship would we be able to offer God? What I am suggesting is that we not think ourselves into a box. Let us try not to put our Lord in a box either. Sometimes I think we humans are cursed with a logical mind. For it is that mind that wants everything to line up and be orderly inside it. Well, if God were so predictable so as to allow a HUMAN mind to comprehend all there was to know about Him, then how powerful a God would He really be? And what would happen to faith?

Let us think about things that edify instead of divide. We already have lines being drawn in this thread and it is going to cause fingers to be pointed. This is not Christian behavior. We do not study doctrine and theology to accuse someone of a different mind. Let us keep that in mind.

Oh, and to answer the question about whether our sins were bought or not, they weren't bought. We were bought with the blood of Christ. Our sins were FORGIVEN...cast away as far as the east is from the west....

That is biblical.....that is truth....can we not just live with this?

~your servant in Christ