rapture

[Leonard]

Quite right, Hazard. And my apologies to Lawyer for God. I know from your posts, you don't get carried away with drivel....usually! Nonetheless, some of the best known teachers in Christendom today do teach this stuff as if it was the plain truth of the Bible, so one can hardly blame anybody for believing it these days. In actuality it only an interpretation and a very, very new one at that; only popularized around 1830-40 of our era. And all based on the ADDITION of the definite article 'the' to Jesus' words warning of 'great tribulation' (and we ALL know how God feels about 'adding to' or 'taking away from' His Word!).

So although I did not intend to be rude, it appears I succeeded! And for that I do offer my most abject apologies, to Lawyer for God, and to you, Hazard dear fellow, since you also took offence on his behalf (good on you, for pointing out my fax pax). At the same time, before you question MY knowledge of the Scriptures, I would put you to the same challenge. Go to the Greek originals, and see if you can find any mention at all of "THE" Great Tribulation. You will see, that as I stated, the very phrase itself is a hoax.

You see, when Jesus said that "In those days" there would be "great tribulation," the words he used simply indicate a great many perils. Colloquially, we might even translate it as 'gobs of trouble.' If the KJV translators had so translated the phrase, it is very difficult to see how imaginative and/or entrepreneurially minded people might have written a lot of cheesy 'last days' books talks about 'The Gobs of Trouble'! But the "sexier" phrase 'The Great Tribulation,' although utterly false to the original texts, could (and most assuredly DOES) sell books...AND LOTS OF THEM! I do SO wish I had written a couple of them, when I still believed their commercial hype!

[HAZARD]

Quite right, Hazard. And my apologies to Lawyer for God. I know from your posts, you don't get carried away with drivel....usually! Nonetheless, some of the best known teachers in Christendom today do teach this stuff as if it was the plain truth of the Bible, so one can hardly blame anybody for believing it these days. In actuality it only an interpretation and a very, very new one at that; only popularized around 1830-40 of our era. And all based on the ADDITION of the definite article 'the' to Jesus' words warning of 'great tribulation' (and we ALL know how God feels about 'adding to' or 'taking away from' His Word!).

So although I did not intend to be rude, it appears I succeeded! And for that I do offer my most abject apologies, to Lawyer for God, and to you, Hazard dear fellow, since you also took offence on his behalf (good on you, for pointing out my fax pax). At the same time, before you question MY knowledge of the Scriptures, I would put you to the same challenge. Go to the Greek originals, and see if you can find any mention at all of "THE" Great Tribulation. You will see, that as I stated, the very phrase itself is a hoax.

You see, when Jesus said that "In those days" there would be "great tribulation," the words he used simply indicate a great many perils. Colloquially, we might even translate it as 'gobs of trouble.' If the KJV translators had so translated the phrase, it is very difficult to see how imaginative and/or entrepreneurially minded people might have written a lot of cheesy 'last days' books talks about 'The Gobs of Trouble'! But the "sexier" phrase 'The Great Tribulation,' although utterly false to the original texts, could (and most assuredly DOES) sell books...AND LOTS OF THEM! I do SO wish I had written a couple of them, when I still believed their commercial hype!

__________________________________________________________________________

I accept your kind apology although I was not personally offended. I have a hide a thick as a Rino's. I understand how these things can happen, often without us even realising we have done this. May I first state that I am not questioning your knowledge on this subject, but putting forward what I have learnt and up till know believe is doctrinal regarding the Tribulation and also the rapture.. However I will take up your offer, "challenge," to see for myself what you say is in fact the truth. I will get back as soon as time permits. If I am proven wrong, with the help of the Holy Spirit, I will apologise and change my stance as quick as lightning. I have no pet theories I wish to hold on to or argue. All I am interested in is truth. (John 5:39).

Again Thank you.

[irishcowboy]

with all the stuff going on right now

i was wondering when u think the rapture will happen?

i just want to hear people's opinions on this

well, to answer your question, i will first ask you a question.

If you die tonight, will you go to heaven?

now for the answer, if your answer is "no" or "I dont know" or "I am not sure" or "I hope so" then it would not matter if the rapture is now or 50 years from now.

in 1979, several of us joined together while serving overseas, being bored out of our gourds, and searched the Scriptures over for all prophecy concerning the end time.

what we came up with was at that time, every prophecy that was required to have taken place prior to the "rapture" had already been fulfilled.

this does not mean that other prophecies can not take place prior to the rapture, some can be fulfilled before or after....

we have to keep in mine the signs point to the "END TIME" and not the rapture.

i hear people saying that they have heard this for 80 years, and that there have always been wars and rumors of wars, and earthquakes, and storms and pestalance and and and.......

yes, this is true, all through time, there have been wars, there have been earthquakes recorded for quite some time. storms and other things happening.

but......

Jerimiah spoke about something that had to take place prior to..... and that happened in 1948...... the time now is within just one generation.

read the signs, Israel is surrounded by her enemies. Israel is at war again, her enemies have announced they will be (attempting to, my word) take her off the face of the earth.

there is a problem with this statement they have made, it does not align with the Word of God. It tells us that Israel will not be anialated, but will survive the attacks on her, that her enemies will fall instead.

about a year ago, an event happened (just one of many) that proves this point in the natural, a storm had slowed and was building in strength, and when the Israel gave over a piece of land ( with the United States encouraging this ) this storm made landfall in La. and Ms.

all through history, those that go against Israel end up getting the short end of the stick, and suffer because of it. even Israel's Prime Minister did not survive this ordeal for his part in it.

you will also find that every time Israel signed a treaty with someone, they fell victim to that same group. one of their first instructions was that they did not make a treaty with anyone, and yet, they are still trying to do things Mans way instead of Gods way.....

anyone that is not ready for the rapture right now, is standing on borrowed time.

that is all there is to say about it.

mike

[HAZARD]

Dear Leonard.

The only Scripture I can find where the actual words "The Tribulation" is mentioned is in (Matt. 24:29), where it states; "Immediately after the tribulation" etc. This does show that a tribulationhas occured because it mentions the time after it had occured. I, according to these Scriptures which I will show, proves a tribulation will occure and we can understand the character of the tribulation as being God's wrath pouring out upon mankind for their wickedness and corruption which shall exceed the days of Noah and Lot (Gen. 6; Matt. 24:37-39; Luke 17:22-37; 2 Tim. 3:1-12).

Men will reject the truth until God turnes them over to the "strong delusion" of the Antichrist who will cause them to believe a lie and be damned (2 Thess. 2:8-12; 2 Pet. 3:1-9). Even after God pours out His judgments upon men, they will still defy Him (Rev. 9:20, 21; 6:2-11; 17:1-18; 18:1-24). Mere words cannot describe the utter rebllion and wickedness of men during this period of final struggle between God and the devil over the posession of the Earth (Rev. 11:15; 12:7-12; 19:11-21; 20:1-3).

When we speak of the tribulation we mean the troubles that God's people will have to undergo, especially the Jewish people, as Daniels Seventieth Week concerns only Israel and their city Jerusalem. The last half of the Week will be "the time of Jacob's trouble" and these troubles primarily concern Israel.

There are several purposes given in Scripture for the tribulation and these are;

To purify Israel and bring them back to a place where God can fulfill the everlasting covenants made with their fathers (Isa. 2:6; 3:26; 16:1-5; 24:1-25; 26:20, 21; Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22:17-22; Rom. 11:25-29).

To purify Israel of all rebels (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22:17-22; Zech. 13:8, 9; Mal. 3:3, 4).

To plead with and bring Israel into the bond of the New Covenant (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 36:24-28; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10-13:9; Mal. 4:3, 4).

To judge Israel and punish them for their rejection of the Messiah and make them willing to accept Him when He comes the second time (Ezek. 20:33, 34; Zech. 12:10-13:9; 14:1-15; Matt. 24:15-31).

To judge the nations for their persecution of Israel (Isa.63:1-5; Joel 3; Rev. 6:1-19:21).

To bring Israel to complete repentance (Zech 12:10-13:9; Rom. 11;26-29; Matt. 23:39).

To fulfill the prophecies of Dan. 9:24-27; Rev. 6:1-19:21; Matt. 24:15, 29; etc.

To cause Israel to flee into the wilderness of Edom and Moab and to be persecuted by the nations that Israel will have to turn to God for help (Isa. 16:1-5; Ezek. 20:33-35; Dan. 11:40-12:7; Hos. 2:14-17; Matt. 24:15-31; Rev. 12).

The tribulation will begin to affect Israel before the Seventieth Week begins. How long is not certain, but when theAntichrist rises in the beginning of the Week, Israel will be undergowing persecution by the whore and the ten kings of Revived Rome who are dominated by the whor until the middle of the Week.

The tribulation is divided into two parts, the first being less severe than the second.

The first division of the tribulation takes in the first three and one half years of the Seventieth Week and is termed "the lesser tribulation" for it is not as great in severity as the last three and one half years, because of the protection of Israel by the Antichrist during that time. Israel's persecution then will be from a sourse entirely different from that of the last division. This first division of the tribulation takes in the fulfilment of Rev. 6:1-9:21. The judgment of the sixth seal and first six trumpets comes in thisperiod, proving tribulation during this time.

The last three and one half years of the Week is termed "the great tribulation" because it will be more severe in persecution upon Israel than the first three and one half years. Antichrist, who will protect Israel for the first three and one half years, will break his covenant with her in the middle of the Week and becomes her bitter enemy. He will then try and destroy her, which calls for the judgments of the seven vials of the last three and one half years. This part of the tribulation includes the fulfillment of Rev. 10:1-19:21. Jesus, Daniel, Jeremiah, and many others speak of this time of Israels trouble as being worse than any time that has ever been on the Earth or ever will be (Dan. 12:1; Jer. 30:4-11; Matt. 24:21, 22; Rev. 11;1, 2; 12:14-17; 13:5-7).

[Leonard]

Indeed there ALREADY WAS 'tribulation in those days' as the Legions of Rome 'compassed Jerusalem round about with armies' exactly as Jesus predicted!

So I look for no future 'The Great Tribulation' since even the Talmud agrees the 'Trouble of Jacob' was fulfilled in the Roman conquest of A.D. 70.

Of course, you're welcome to believe the latest and greatest Bible teachers of our time. One can hardly fault you for giving Hal Lindsey, Charles Stanley, Jack Van Impe, et al, more credence than you give ME!

The best book I ever read on the Revelation was DAYS OF VENGEANCE, by David Chilton. A little hard to get hold of these days, but a very thorough and scholarly look at the Apocalypse.

[HAZARD]

Indeed there ALREADY WAS 'tribulation in those days' as the Legions of Rome 'compassed Jerusalem round about with armies' exactly as Jesus predicted!

So I look for no future 'The Great Tribulation' since even the Talmud agrees the 'Trouble of Jacob' was fulfilled in the Roman conquest of A.D. 70.

Of course, you're welcome to believe the latest and greatest Bible teachers of our time. One can hardly fault you for giving Hal Lindsey, Charles Stanley, Jack Van Impe, et al, more credence than you give ME!

The best book I ever read on the Revelation was DAYS OF VENGEANCE, by David Chilton. A little hard to get hold of these days, but a very thorough and scholarly look at the Apocalypse.

____________________________________________________________________________

Hi Leonard.

Yes, you and I as free moral agents can believe as we understand Scripture on doctrinal issues.

With respect, may I ask a question of you?

If as you believe;

" Indeed there ALREADY WAS 'tribulation in those days'

, and;

"So I look for no future 'The Great Tribulation' since even the Talmud agrees the 'Trouble of Jacob' was fulfilled in the Roman conquest of A.D. 70.

,

Where is Jesus? For as Matthew 24:29 states "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matt. 24:29-30).

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they sahll gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31).

I don't recall hearing or reading anywhere throughout history of any great sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven. Nor seeing the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power? Surely this great even would have been recorded by someone somewhere on the Earth since the tribulation?

And if angels, with a great sound of a trumpet, were to arrive on the Earth and gather together God's elect, wouldn't this also be historicly recorded somewhere?

And why isn't Christs kingdom being set up? His Kingdom is supposed to be set up after the future tribulation, for Christ does not come to the Earth with the saints till then (Matt. 24:15-31; Zech. 14:1-21; Dan. 12:1-13; Rev. 19:11-21)

And after Israel is gathered back from all countries (Ezek. 20:33-36; 36:17-38; 37:1-28; Hosea 3:4-5; Dan. 9:27).

How is it that Jews still being persecuted today?

The Jews are supposed to be delivered from the armies of the nations and become a blessing to all the families of the Earth (Gen. 12:1-3; Ps. 2:6-8; Isa. 9:6-7; 25:6-9; Zech. 9:9-11; 14:1-21; Acts 15:13-18; Luke 1:32-35)?

[prcfighter]

the "rapture" as you call it will happen right before the finaly judgement. after the tribulation. not before like so many people want to beliefe that they can escape the tribulation. the rapture is jesus ressurecting everyone. when you die. you do not go to heaven. you die, dead, or uncoincous, asleep. your souls dies. wel you are a soul. you dont not have a soul you are the soul. a soul is if taken from hebrew body and breathe so when you die your soul dies. but when Jesus returns he ressurects everyone and we are given new body and souls. Jesus ressuercted everyone after he died and brought them up to heaven. and now there are more dead people of course. everyone who died after jesus's ressurected. so Jesus has to come agian to collect everyone. that is why Jesus told the disicples i am preparing a hosue for you and will come back to get you. which means they do nto go to heaven once they died but jesus has to get them and all of us when we die. but it will not be a noticeble time. like we are asleep. so after everything Jesus will return and ressurect the dead first then the people left on earth and there will be judgement and a new earth and heaven and cool stuff.

[oliveoil]

What are you trying to say, that its not going to be a tribulation. Are a 7 year tribulation. Rev speaks of a 3 1/2 year period where there is to accrue some major events that one would and could call tribulation. I don't see how this can be ruled out. Its not that hard to understand the events per say. The saints who are ready go up, there's war in heaven and Satan is cast out. Confined to earth. Satan then has 3 1/2 years to rule from earth, but not without the judgements of God hindering his stay. At the end of that period, Christ comes back, defeats his enemies, puts Satan in chains, throws man of sin and beast into lake of fire. Rapture may are may not happen before, if not all saints will be here when Christ comes back at the end of that time period.

[billie]

I think the rapture will happen Fall of this year. And I have to admit I'm so looking forward to it, to finally being with my Savior, no more bills, no more pain, no more sickness.......it'll be great!!!

[Leonard]

Lawyer for God: Before you get too carried away with this novel 'end times' drivel which passes for sound doctrine these days, please go to the Greek text, and find ANYWHERE that mentions a period of time called THE Great Tribulation.

Once you have seen that the very phrase itself is a hoax perpetrated on the Church, I'm sure your studies will lead you in many interesting directions.

MAt 21: 21 I do not have greek alphabet on this computer, but the words "tribulation great" are there. Not "great tribulation," but close enough.

No, it is really NOT 'close enough' because these profiteers have ADDED TO the Word of the Lord, by adding the definite article 'the' to the phrase 'then shall be great tribulation', in order to make it say 'then shall be THE Great Tribulation.' Surely you can see there is a vast, vast difference between the meanings of these two phrases. One is the Word of God, the other is the invention of men selling books and gaining fame for themselves.

More Later...........