Lucifer

[herald2]

God's remnant church is, both, Jew and Gentile - all of those who believe in Him:

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for seed." Rom 9:7,8.

"Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, the same are the children of Abraham." Ga 3:7.

"And if ye be Christ's, then are YE Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Ga 3:29.

[None]

12 "Son of man,

take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'You were the model of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,

the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz and emerald,

chrysolite, onyx and jasper,

sapphire, [b) turquoise and beryl. [c]

Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;

on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade

you were filled with violence,

and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,

and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud

on account of your beauty,

and you corrupted your wisdom

because of your splendor.

So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade

you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

So I made a fire come out from you,

and it consumed you,

and I reduced you to ashes on the ground

in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you

are appalled at you;

you have come to a horrible end

and will be no more.' "

So is the king of Tyre being refered to here as Lucifer?

Edited April 22, 2007 by None

[other one]

12 "Son of man,

take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'You were the model of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,

the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz and emerald,

chrysolite, onyx and jasper,

sapphire, [b) turquoise and beryl. [c]

Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;

on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade

you were filled with violence,

and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,

and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud

on account of your beauty,

and you corrupted your wisdom

because of your splendor.

So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade

you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

So I made a fire come out from you,

and it consumed you,

and I reduced you to ashes on the ground

in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you

are appalled at you;

you have come to a horrible end

and will be no more.' "

So is the king of Tyre being refered to here as Lucifer?

Well it says that the king was in Eden so the person being referred to has to be either Adam, Eve, or Lucifer/Satan... He was anointed as a Cherub and walked on the holy mountain among the firey stones....... and it says that he was created (not born)...... So I'l say he was talking about Lucifer who was/is the spiritual king of Tyre...... Or the king of Tyre was not human, but one of those fallen angels spoken of in Genesis Chapter Six.... or somehting like that.

Sam

[Leonard]

12 "Son of man,

take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'You were the model of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,

the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz and emerald,

chrysolite, onyx and jasper,

sapphire, [b) turquoise and beryl. [c]

Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;

on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade

you were filled with violence,

and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,

and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud

on account of your beauty,

and you corrupted your wisdom

because of your splendor.

So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade

you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

So I made a fire come out from you,

and it consumed you,

and I reduced you to ashes on the ground

in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you

are appalled at you;

you have come to a horrible end

and will be no more.' "

So is the king of Tyre being refered to here as Lucifer?

Well it says that the king was in Eden so the person being referred to has to be either Adam, Eve, or Lucifer/Satan... He was anointed as a Cherub and walked on the holy mountain among the firey stones....... and it says that he was created (not born)...... So I'l say he was talking about Lucifer who was/is the spiritual king of Tyre...... Or the king of Tyre was not human, but one of those fallen angels spoken of in Genesis Chapter Six.... or somehting like that.

Sam

It does say those things. But remember, the Hebrew Prophets spoke in some pretty high-flung imagery. For instance we can be pretty sure that in the heat of battle AT LEAST ONE BABYLONIAN 'BROKE RANKS.' We can also be sure their horses were NOT as 'swift as leopards' (75 MPH). When Rome destroyed Jerusalem, literal 'stars' did not literally 'fall from heaven.'

So why have we chosen to take the symbols surrounding this King of Tyre, so literally?

[None]

That's why I was asking. It was in that text but I was wondering if there was a parallel scripture anywhere or if anyone here knew more on this subject.

I know exaggeration was not unusual in scriptures,

example:1 Kings 12:10

10)The young men who had grown up with him replied,

"Tell these people who have said to you,

'Your father put a heavy yoke on us, but make our yoke lighter'-tell them,

'My little finger is thicker than my father's waist.

11) My father laid on you a heavy yoke; I will make it even heavier.

My father scourged you with whips; I will scourge you with scorpions.' "

[other one]

It does say those things. But remember, the Hebrew Prophets spoke in some pretty high-flung imagery. For instance we can be pretty sure that in the heat of battle AT LEAST ONE BABYLONIAN 'BROKE RANKS.' We can also be sure their horses were NOT as 'swift as leopards' (75 MPH). When Rome destroyed Jerusalem, literal 'stars' did not literally 'fall from heaven.'

So why have we chosen to take the symbols surrounding this King of Tyre, so literally?

Well, it is one thing to stretch the speed of a horse, and another different to call someone created instead of born, and to place a person in the Garden of Eden..... Also I don't know nor have I ever read that any of the Babylonians broke ranks.... I've also learned over my 60 years that common sense doesn't usually work when dealing with the things of God, for much of his dealings with us defies common logic.... like why in the world does He even bother??

[None]

...why in the world does He even bother??

He's awesome and He loves us. Who can discover the reason for this?

I don't care why.

[Servus Christi]

I have heard many references to the Angel Lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels who followed him against God... where does this information come from?

I am quite certain that in the NIV bible, there is no mention of Lucifer, and in the King James Version, he is mentioned only once in Isaiah 14:12... so how do we gather anything besides the fact that he rebelled against God from that one verse? Where did the 1/3 come from?

Lucifer is a Latin term, designating Satan's name as an angel, meaning "Light bearer" it is mentioned in the Latin text the "Vulgate"

Beatus Dei, ave Christos!

[Servus Christi]

12 "Son of man,

take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'You were the model of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,

the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz and emerald,

chrysolite, onyx and jasper,

sapphire, [b) turquoise and beryl. [c]

Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;

on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade

you were filled with violence,

and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,

and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud

on account of your beauty,

and you corrupted your wisdom

because of your splendor.

So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade

you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

So I made a fire come out from you,

and it consumed you,

and I reduced you to ashes on the ground

in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you

are appalled at you;

you have come to a horrible end

and will be no more.' "

So is the king of Tyre being refered to here as Lucifer?

Lucifer in Hebrew, Helel, Latin Lucifer, is mentioned, in Job 11:17, Jo. 38:17, Psalms 109:3, in the Vulgate anyways. Helel is a noun, derived from the verb Yalal, which means to lament. So many of the early Christian's held that Lucifer was not a proper name of Satan but the state in which He is. A constant state of lammentation for his choice, and his loss. This is not the king of Tyre, but Satan.

[Servus Christi]

12 "Son of man,

take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'You were the model of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,

the garden of God;

every precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz and emerald,

chrysolite, onyx and jasper,

sapphire, [b) turquoise and beryl. [c]

Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;

on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for so I ordained you.

You were on the holy mount of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created

till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade

you were filled with violence,

and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,

and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud

on account of your beauty,

and you corrupted your wisdom

because of your splendor.

So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade

you have desecrated your sanctuaries.

So I made a fire come out from you,

and it consumed you,

and I reduced you to ashes on the ground

in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you

are appalled at you;

you have come to a horrible end

and will be no more.' "

So is the king of Tyre being refered to here as Lucifer?

Lucifer in Hebrew, Helel, Latin Lucifer, is mentioned, in Job 11:17, Jo. 38:17, Psalms 109:3, in the Vulgate anyways. Helel is a noun, derived from the verb Yalal, which means to lament. So many of the early Christian's held that Lucifer was not a proper name of Satan but the state in which He is. A constant state of lammentation for his choice, and his loss. This is not the king of Tyre, but Satan.

Tyre, or "Tyrus" in Hebrew Zor, in Aramaic Sour, was founded and established in 2800 B.C. In Isaiah 28:3, Zor, or Tyre is called the "Queen of the Seas", this is due to their inexcusalbe pride in their wealth and ships. It was the Tyranians that actually founded "Carthage" in 814 B.C. Tyran once being allied with the Jew's fell. It began seeling Jewish prisoners of war, and went entirley corrupt. The prophet lashed out against Tyran, and predicted it's demise. Isaiah 23, Ezechiel 26, Joel 3:4-8, Amos 1:9. I believe that God would not refer to the current King of Tyran, but rather use Tyran as a symbol of babylon and evil, and was speaking of Lucifer who had taken the world by surprise. In Ezechial 26:17, people are lammenting over the fall of Tyre. Yala in hebrew is teh verb of lammenting, and Helel is the noun of Lamentation. So these people are of satan, or of Lucifer, and thus Lamment, over his fall. The scripture you gave could also show that Satan had such a hold over the world, ecpecially over Tyrus, that fall of Tyrus was paralled with it's leader Lucifer. Who knows? lol

Beatus Dei, ave Christos!