Is faith enough to save us from Hell?

[RGR]

How odd, loveroftruth, that you're a newbie and you're here to defend antz! Even more odd is the fact that your grammatical style is the same as antz! You both love to punctuate multiple times and you both have the same problem of not always capitalizing the first letter of the first word of a sentence. So, in other words, you're not playing anyone for a fool, antz.

antz=loveroftruth=antz=loveroftruth

(just to answer this quickly...)

really??? i thought it is not allowed to Christian (which you claim you are) to judge without enough witness or evidence??? that is a sign that you are not a Christian... you are a false witness... pointing fingers without basis...

anyway you can PM angel and ask him to check whatever check you need to do...

i just hope that this post will not be closed like what happen to the other topic...

First of all, you give me all the evidence I need; you don't deny it and even if you did, it's obvious by the punctuation and grammatical styling. You also claim to be a Christian but yet you have no evidence but label me a "false witness." Let me assure you of one thing, and I don't brag often, but I will say this much. I am a member of the Worthy Ministry Team, both as a Watchman and a member of the Prayer Team and let me assure you, I would not be in such a position if I were bearing "false witness" against people and were not displaying the fruits of a Christian.

[cjrose]

How odd, loveroftruth, that you're a newbie and you're here to defend antz! Even more odd is the fact that your grammatical style is the same as antz! You both love to punctuate multiple times and you both have the same problem of not always capitalizing the first letter of the first word of a sentence. So, in other words, you're not playing anyone for a fool, antz.

antz=loveroftruth=antz=loveroftruth

(just to answer this quickly...)

really??? i thought it is not allowed to Christian (which you claim you are) to judge without enough witness or evidence??? that is a sign that you are not a Christian... you are a false witness... pointing fingers without basis...

anyway you can PM angel and ask him to check whatever check you need to do...

i just hope that this post will not be closed like what happen to the other topic...

First of all, you give me all the evidence I need; you don't deny it and even if you did, it's obvious by the punctuation and grammatical styling. You also claim to be a Christian but yet you have no evidence but label me a "false witness." Let me assure you of one thing, and I don't brag often, but I will say this much. I am a member of the Worthy Ministry Team, both as a Watchman and a member of the Prayer Team and let me assure you, I would not be in such a position if I were bearing "false witness" against people and were not displaying the fruits of a Christian.

Amen Ronald. I was hoping someone would say something. I would have but I'm not good at engaging in disaggreements and please I know my grammar isn't up to par and neither is my spelling but I am true to my words. I speak from the heart and give the Lord all the credit for my inspiration.

[Guest loveroftruth]

How odd, loveroftruth, that you're a newbie and you're here to defend antz! Even more odd is the fact that your grammatical style is the same as antz! You both love to punctuate multiple times and you both have the same problem of not always capitalizing the first letter of the first word of a sentence. So, in other words, you're not playing anyone for a fool, antz.

antz=loveroftruth=antz=loveroftruth

(just to answer this quickly...)

really??? i thought it is not allowed to Christian (which you claim you are) to judge without enough witness or evidence??? that is a sign that you are not a Christian... you are a false witness... pointing fingers without basis...

anyway you can PM angel and ask him to check whatever check you need to do...

i just hope that this post will not be closed like what happen to the other topic...

First of all, you give me all the evidence I need; you don't deny it and even if you did, it's obvious by the punctuation and grammatical styling. You also claim to be a Christian but yet you have no evidence but label me a "false witness." Let me assure you of one thing, and I don't brag often, but I will say this much. I am a member of the Worthy Ministry Team, both as a Watchman and a member of the Prayer Team and let me assure you, I would not be in such a position if I were bearing "false witness" against people and were not displaying the fruits of a Christian.

Hi Ron,

Let's discuss about the topic and not judging us without enough evidence! antz is not equal to loveroftruth!

Please act as a Minister of Christ if you really are

Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Anyway, aside from FAITH we need to have HOPE and aside from HOPE we need LOVE we need all of these three for SALVATION from hell.

[antz]

Antz,

You set the parameters of debate on this subject when you wrote the following in your first post

please site verse to support your answer, in that way we will be bounded by the Biblical principle not by our own interpretation

However, your above response relies entirely upon your own interpretation of the verses that you cited. Furthermore, you said that we should use "THE WHOLE BIBLE" in our responses. Yet I have not seen a single verse cited by you from the Old Testament. Why is that? Is it possible that there never has been such a concept of "contingient salvation" in the Bible?

sorry for not explaining it well because i told you i am not that good in english. gramatical correction is always welcome. what i mean with THE WHOLE BIBLE is not using it at once but using it as a whole in our declaration. example, if I said "Paul did not said..." it must be based on the whole Bible, did Paul really not said it?? i hope you got what i meant coz im really not that good in english.

The concept that you have attempted to describe in your second posting to this thread, regarding Epesians 2 and Romans 5 is that of initial salvation and complete. But rather than associating these two aspects of salvation as the Bible clearly does, your interpretation calls them separate.

my point here is simple, Eph 2 speaks of past event while Rom 5 future events, how can this be of the same salvation if the other had happened already and the other will happen in the future. another thing is that Eph 2:8 is referring to salvation from sins as it is clearly stated from Eph 2:1 onwards. that is why you will be called BORN AGAIN is because you had been saved already. it is complete salvation from sins even if the sin that you will commit unwillfully will automatically be forgiven when you pray because you are already saved from sins and you are considered as BORN AGAIN. but as a born again you have to keep that salvation that you have received as gift (no works). how can we keep it? Phil 2:12, we have to work out our own salvation...

Romans 5:9-10 completes a thought in an exposition regarding the aspect of justification way back in chapter 3. Justification is first defined by Paul in Romans 3:21-31. Then in 4:1-25 paul cites our prime example of justification by faith, Abraham. Finally in 5:1-11 Paul cites the result: "Therefore, having been justified out of faith we have peace toward God" (v.1). That "therefore," states a conclusion. So then Paul is concluding his exposition on the matter of justification (by faith) with vv. 1-11.

i agree with this...

In this particular portion Paul first points to Christ, who is both the instrument of God's justification (Rom. 3:24), and the means by which the believers have access to God's abundant grace (See also Hebrews 4:16). Second in these verses is Paul's pointing to that grace, and our hope in Christ, for strength to endure trials.

now watch your word here because it seems that u are agreeing with me...

And finally in verses 9-10 Paul points to another hope which is assured through the death of Christ: "Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath."

you see... that is what i am trying to say... there is ANOTHER HOPE... after the salvation from sins which is assured through the death of Christ. AMEN!

we are hoping that we will be saved from the wrath... while in Eph 2:8 it is not a hope... it has passed... we are saved through faith. THAT IS ANOTHER HOPE... difeferent from the salvation that had been received...

Notice in verses 9 how Paul writes, "..We will be saved...from the wrath." The wrath spoken of here is none other than God's wrath which will be poured out upon all creation on the great day day of His judgment.

But Paul didn't place any contingiencies in these verses, did he? He didn't write, "We might be saved, depending on the number of works we do and the quality of our works, etc..." He simply wrote, "we will be saved."

this is now what i mean by saying THE WHOLE BIBLE. from the WHOLE BIBLE's point of view, did Paul put contingency regarding salvation on the wrath or not??? he did... like what i already posted it says in Phil 2:12 that a born again has to WORK OUT for his own salvation.

Now how could Paul have arrived at such a conclusion? How could Paul have come to the end of an exposition such as this and say, "We will be saved..."? Well, he just completed an exposition regarding the one by whom and through whom we will be saved! It is because of Christ that, "we will be saved." And Paul's affirmation of this is verse 10: "For if we being enemies were reconciled to God throught he death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled."

Yes, truely Paul did arrived to conclusion. and the conclusion is... "...we will be saved..." the salvation from wrath will happen in the future... "WE WILL BE SAVED ..." they had been saved from the sins... and hoping to be save from the wrath and that HOPE is assured through Jesus Christ...

So you see, it is because of God's reconciliation through the death of His Son that we will be saved in His life. Why? Because Christ is the factor, the means, and the process by which we are saved. It is because of His all-inclusive death on the cross and His resurrection that we can be saved. Paul makes absolutely no qualms about this fact, and he never once adds anything of the natural realm to our salvation. It is all by Christ alone.

this sound acceptable to me although i don't know the meaning of qualms

There are not differing salvations. There is only one salvation with differing aspects. Allow me to exaplin more fully:

there is difference on that... just try to look deeper... the salvation from sin can be lost... look...

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

you see... IF YOU SIN WILLFULLY... your hope to be saved from the WRATH will be gone...

then the other salvation is eternal... it can't be lost anymore... that is the salvation from the WRATH...

I think there is a limit on nuber of quotes here... i use indent instead from this point onwards... i will be commenting on the upper indented part

No Christian familiar with anything of the Bible would argue against the fact that God has given us

another life

in Christ Jesus. Through our faith and confession of Christ Jesus we have been made new creations. We are a part of God's family because we have been given eternal life. Eternal life is nothing less than God's divine life.

In his letters to the Romans, Ephesians, and Galatians respectively, Paul wrote many times how believers in Christ are new creations, to the growth of the church as the Body of Christ, etc. He even used the human body as a metaphore to the Body of Christ.

I agree on this...

Because of this we can rightly say that salvation has an

organic aspect

.

In this one, no offense but if the Bible never use the term like for this organic aspect, i can not accept it. maybe it has the same principle but i rather use the Biblical terms than interpreting it myself.

Salvation causes believers to be "born anew," (John 3:3; 7) and it causes them to "grow" (1 Pet. 2:2; 2 Pet. 3:18).

Now, because of the fall there is also a

legal aspect

to our salvation. Because all have fallen short of the glory of God, because all are fallen, and because all have committed offenses toward God, we need a salvation that satisfies God's righteousness and holiness. It is not remarkable therefore that Paul uses a word such as "reconciliation" to describe our salvation. In fact, in Romans 3-5 Paul's description of salvation is a very "legal description" of how Christ's operation on the cross has satisfied the righteous requirements of the Law and of God's holiness and righteousness.

So we have these

two aspects

of our salvation: legal and organic. You may ask why we have these two aspects. Well, that's because there are two aspects of the fall! On the one hand there are the offenses toward God of our sins, and on the other hand there is the indwelling

nature of sin

which causes us to commit those offenses. Our salvation through Jesus Christ therefore must have these two aspects - to deal with our offenses toward God and to deal with our inward nature. In 1 John 1:9 it says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Faithfulness speaks to Christ's ability to cleanse us from the inward nature of sin and righteousness speaks to Christ's satisfaction of the legal requirement of the law (See also 1 John 2:1). Also, forgiveness is for an outward offense and cleansing is for the inward nature of sin.

same as above, the principle might be the same but i wont accept terms like legal description, or organic description... but on this i won't argue with you, if that is how you see it... that is ok, but me, i only agree on the principles from the verses you cited not on the terms you use to explain it. i hope we will not argue on this, otherwise consider this part as NO COMMENT

You wanted us to use the whole Bible in our response, so let me point to the book of Leviticus. In Leviticus 7 the priests would first sacrfice the animal, sprinkle its blood on the altar, and then eat of the sacrifice. The sprinkling of the blood is for the remission of the offense, and the eating of the sacrifice is for nourishment. This is a picture of Christ's death. Christ's blood is the factor by which God's righteousness is satisfied - for the offenses of sins (typified by the sin offering, btw), and it is also through Christ's death - by believing into His death and resurrection - that we have God's life, which gives us nourishment for our growth in life.

this is acceptable to me

So you see, there are not two salvations. There is only one salvation with at least two aspects. Being "saved" may speak of initial regeneration. It also may speak of "one who is saved." And it may speak of "one who will be saved." But these are not separate salvations.

Look above at my post, there are two salvations, one is a salvation that if you did not keep well can be lost by commiting sins willfully, and the other salvation is eternal... it is yours to keep forever and ever... AMEN

Edited August 17, 2006 by antz

[nebula]

That's a bit of a stretch to call those two different salvations.

To be saved from sins is to be saved from wrath.

"Work out" your salvation does not mean "work for". To work out means you already have it. If you notice Phillipians 2, Paul begins by stating how we need to have the attitude of Christ - becoming a servant - then he says, "Therefore . . . work out your salvation. . . ." It implies the building up of something you already have.

that is precisely correct... you already have it... but you have to KEEP it.. you have to work out to keep it...

What?!

The word "keep", the phrase "keep it", and the concept of "keep" is no where in that passage.

What hat did you pull that rabbit out of?

by keeping it then YOU SHALL BE SAVED...

IT DOES NOT SAY THAT.

Hebrews 10

10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

I think Ovedya was correct - you all have no understanding of the Old testament. If you understood Christ's death on the cross from the perspective of the Hebraic sacrificial system, you wouldn't be adding the burden of law to Christ's redemption.

what happen if you were not able to keep it??? let us ask the Bible...

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him

you need to keep that gift and take good care of it.

meaning you have been saved from the sin but if you draw back, you will not be saved from the wrath...

Let's put this verse in context:

Hebrews 10

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.

36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

The passage does not say, "We are those who work to the saving of the soul" - does it?

No, it says, "believe."

Now read this verse:

John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

What is the work of God?

To believe in Jesus!

do we agree on that now???

Nope

[nebula]

Anyway, aside from FAITH we need to have HOPE and aside from HOPE we need LOVE we need all of these three for SALVATION from hell.

What is with "Jesus and..." to be saved.

Wait a minute -

None of you has brought up any mention of Jesus in this.

Interesting....

[Guest loveroftruth]

That's a bit of a stretch to call those two different salvations.

To be saved from sins is to be saved from wrath.

"Work out" your salvation does not mean "work for". To work out means you already have it. If you notice Phillipians 2, Paul begins by stating how we need to have the attitude of Christ - becoming a servant - then he says, "Therefore . . . work out your salvation. . . ." It implies the building up of something you already have.

that is precisely correct... you already have it... but you have to KEEP it.. you have to work out to keep it...

What?!

The word "keep", the phrase "keep it", and the concept of "keep" is no where in that passage.

What hat did you pull that rabbit out of?

by keeping it then YOU SHALL BE SAVED...

IT DOES NOT SAY THAT.

Hebrews 10

10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

I think Ovedya was correct - you all have no understanding of the Old testament. If you understood Christ's death on the cross from the perspective of the Hebraic sacrificial system, you wouldn't be adding the burden of law to Christ's redemption.

what happen if you were not able to keep it??? let us ask the Bible...

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him

you need to keep that gift and take good care of it.

meaning you have been saved from the sin but if you draw back, you will not be saved from the wrath...

Let's put this verse in context:

Hebrews 10

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.

36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

The passage does not say, "We are those who work to the saving of the soul" - does it?

No, it says, "believe."

Now read this verse:

John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

What is the work of God?

To believe in Jesus!

do we agree on that now???

Nope

Are you saying that believing in Jesus is enough for salvation?

[ayin jade]

Are you saying that believing in Jesus is enough for salvation?

Yep.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

[nebula]

I have read also in 1 cor 15:1 that we can only be saved from hell in the future if we will keep our stand as mentioned...

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

How does "keep in memory" translate into works, works, works, and more works?

**

My goodness - you people have been so indoctrinated with the miniscule wordings that you completely miss the big picture.

[nebula]

Are you saying that believing in Jesus is enough for salvation?

In addition to what Ayin Jade wrote -

John 3

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

<snip>

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Jesus Himself said salvation comes from believing in Him.

Works are not required for salvation.

Also here (vs 21) Jesus shows that works are evidence of what is in the heart.