Whats your definition of the "Nephilim"

[MrsSealedEternal]

Another thing I have considered when trying to scrutinize this controversy was the angels that are also referred to as men who appeared to Abraham and came to warn Lot to leave Sodom & Gomorrah. They ate a meal and the men of the city wanted to have relations with them, so that indicates to me that as long as they had flesh, it was possible.

Gen 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.

Gen 18:2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,

Gen 18:3 and said, "My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.

Gen 18:4 "Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree;

Gen 18:5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant." And they said, "So do, as you have said."

Gen 18:6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, "Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes."

Gen 18:7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it.

Gen 18:8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.

Gen 18:9 Then they said to him, "Where is Sarah your wife?" And he said, "There, in the tent."

Gen 18:10 He said, "I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him.

Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing.

Gen 18:12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"

Gen 18:13 And the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?'

Gen 18:14 "Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son."

Gen 18:15 Sarah denied it however, saying, "I did not laugh"; for she was afraid. And He said, "No, but you did laugh."

Gen 18:16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off.

Gen 18:17 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,

Gen 18:18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed?

Gen 18:19 "For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

Gen 18:21 "I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know."

Gen 18:22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.

Gen 19:1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

Gen 19:2 And he said, "Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant's house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way." They said however, "No, but we shall spend the night in the square."

Gen 19:3 Yet he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

Gen 19:4 Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter;

Gen 19:5 and they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

I find myself leaning towards the understanding of angels who left there proper stations.

Thanks CJ for that very interesting post.

[sheya joie]

Well, that was interesting...

Lat night I was reading this thread, and today my daughter who is in 8th grade came to me and asked for help on her Bible homework. Care to guess which passage?

She was supposed to explain who the 'sons of God' and 'daughters of men' are in this passage. I told her that some say one thing and some another. 'But what do I write for the answer?' she wailed.

'Put down both positions,' I told her. Now I'm curious to see what her Bible teacher will have to say about this.

[other one]

whats your definition of the Nephilim, what or who are they and do you think they they still exist today. I heard it briefly mentioned on a Christian radio broadcast, I have asked some friends of mine and they dont know. much appreciated if anyone can give me clarification as to what they are.

Hi Agnew,

The actual name Nephilim (Fallen Ones) comes from the Torah the same verse in Genesis 6:4 reads as

Genesis 6:4 Torah:

The Nephilim were in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

There has been a long standing argument on many issues concerning the myth of the Nephilim but I believe that there is some merrit to the myth. There is definitive evidence to support that long ago there was an advanced civilization that inhabited the earth (Pre-Flood). I personally believe that this civilization(s) built the Great Pyramid of Giza. There are just far too many inconsistencies in the Egyptologists interpretation of who actually built it.

It is assumed based on historical Egyptian records that it was built by Pharoah Khufu or Imohtep, I forget which one, but there are no hyroglyphics which offer any type of historical record of its construction. The sheer perfection of it's construction, is in direct contrast to the imperfections of the two adjacent smaller Pyramids. The theory has always been that the two smaller Pyramids were the pre-quel to the Great Pyramid but I believe that the two smaller Pyramids are imperfect because they attempted to copy the original and could not achieve the same perfection because they did not know how.

However, I do believe that the lost civilization known as Atlantis, which was the name given to an unknown civilization which is disputed today to have possibly been witnessed by the Greek Philosopher Plato. Personally I think Plato received the details of the description of the city from an Egyptian King who had the story passed down to him through his people/relatives who may have actually been the decendants of Noah's children or at least the story survived the flood due to Noah's children having witnessed Atlantis themselves.

It has been long argued that there must have been an advanced race here, the Bible tells us of a book called Jasher, the book of the "Upright" or possibly "Book of the Righteous". The two verses are

Biblical reference for Jasher:

And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. (Joshua 10:13)

(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.) ­ 2 Samuel 1:18.

When analyzing the account of Noah's flood the book of Jasher reveals a more detailed description of their sin to which God was going to destroy them for.

Jasher 4:18

And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals.

It would appear that the nature of the sin dealt with mankind crossbreeding animals or possibly being advanced enough to alter DNA or genetics. You have to keep an open mind, if the Nephilim were truly The Fallen ones, their knowledge would surely surpass mankinds knowledge having had worked directly for God in the realm of Heaven.

Ever notice the worlds popular known mythical Gods are half animal and half human? and that the Hyroglyphics have lots of images depicting hal man and half animal Gods? Where would a ignorant civilization get the idea of Gods that are half man and half human unless someone passed the idea on to them through some previous historical heritage? I find the coincidence to be uncanny.

Thus we lead into the argument of Angels not being able to marry because of a mis-interpretation of Mathew 22:28-30,

Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

I'm still not sure how one can derive from this passage (Mathew 22:28) that the fallen ones were not capable of mating with human woman? as usual, most take a verse out of its context in order to fit their theory which breaks one of the main rules of scriptural interpretation.

When read literally, the integrity of the context is the key to upholding the "literal" meaning of scripture as long as it remains in context

[jossshr]

Interesting theory CJ. I hadn't thought of that one. I figured they still had more of the "super gene" that Adam may have had, to give him all possible DNA. But the giants survival due to the climate is a good thought.

[EricH]

The Nephilim (literally from the Hebrew verb meaning "to fall") were a group of men considered to be giants because of their physical prowess. The Nephilim were on the earth before and after the time that the "sons of God" inter-bred with the daughters of men in Genesis 6:2

The sense of Genesis 6 is a description of the general evil of the day. Here is my take on the meaning:

1. The "sons of God" was probably a reference to the Godly line coming from Seth. They did evil in God's sight by interbreeding with women outside the Godly line.

2. The Nephilim were a group of men that due to their physical size were able to "fall" upon others using violence.

3. The irony is that both the evil Nephilim and the "sons of God" were intermarrying and interbreeding with the same women. The offspring of the line of Seth and the duaghters of men produced children who were well thought of by the world (6:4), but not by God (6:5)

4. Genesis 6:5 says that God looked upon these events and others and saw that mankind was basically heading headlong onto evil.

It should be noted some feel that the term "Sons of God" refers to demonic beings that interbred with humans. They conclude this because the term "sons of God" is frequently used for angelic beings.

I have concluded that the term refers to the offspring of Seth, because of the followng:

1. Genesis 6 follows immediately on the heels of a contrast the ungodly line of Cain (Genesis 4) and the Godly line of Seth (Genesis 5) Genesis then begins with the idea that women were being born outside of the Godly line of Seth, and the offspring of Seth began to desire them.

2. In no place in scripture are angelic beings described has having the ability to reproduce. In fact Jesus indicated that angelic beings are in fact asexual in nature (Mark 12:25)

3. In Genesis 6:9-13 a new "Godly line" is established that begins with Noah. His line is now pure and undefiled.

Summary

1. The Nephilim were a race of physically superior people that used their advantage to "fall" upon people.

2. The Godly line of Seth began intermarrying with women outside the Godly line.

3. The evil nephilim also began intermarrying with the same women.

4. This dissolution of the Godly line was evil in God's sight (this is a theme that will follow Israel throughout her existance), but produced offspring that were well thought of by the current populace.

5. Because of this, God determined to judge the world by wiping out humanity except for those who belonged to the new Godly line beginning with Noah

[billie]

Thanks for that, Eric. It was very enlightening.

[EricH]

hats wonderful. And where might I ask did you get your information?

Through personal Bible Study and research in the text on context

[Rebmilc]

ANGELS OR SETHITES?

The strange events recorded in Genesis 6 were understood by the ancient rabbinical sources as well as the septuagint translators, as referring to fallen angels procreating weird hybrid offspring known as Nephilim with human women. So it was also understood by the early church fathers. These bizzare events are also echoed in the legends and myths of every ancient culture upon the earth, Greeks, Egyptians etc..

The opposing line of thought put forward by others says that gen 6 actually refers to a failure to keep the faithfull lines of Seth seperate from the worldly line of Cain.

This line of thought would say that after Cain killed Abel, the line of Seth remained seperate & faithfull, but the line of Cain turned ungodly & rebellious. The "Sons of God" are deemed to refer to leadership in the line of Seth, the "daughters of men" is deemed restricted to the line of Cain.

It was in the 5th century A.D that the "Angel" interpretation was viewed as embarrasing when attacked by critics. Celsus and Julian the apostate used the TRADITIONAL "Angel" belief to attack Christianity. Julius Africanus resorted to the "Sethite" interpretation as more comfortable ground, Cyril of Alexandria also repudiated the ORTHODOX "Angel position" with the line of Seth interpretation as did Augustine who embraced the "Sethite" theory and thus it prevailed into the middle ages.

PROBLEMS WITH THE SETHITE VIEW.

(1) Liberties must be taken with the literal text to propose the sethite view. The term translated "The Sons of God" is, in the Hebrew B'nai Ha Elohim "Sons of Elohim" which is a term consistently used in the O.T for Angels (Job 1:6) (Job 2:1) (Job 38:7) where they are in existence before the creation of the earth. It is NEVER used of believers in the O.T and it was so understood by ancient rabbinical sources, by the Septuagint translators in the 3rd century b.c and by the early church fathers.

Attempts to apply this term to Godly leadership is without scriptural foundation.

(2) The line of Cain was not necessarily known for its ungodliness. From a study of naming Cain's children, many which included the name of God, it is not clear that they were necessarily unfaithfull.

(3) The concept of seperate lines itself is suspect and contrary to Scripture (Gen 11:6) National and racial distinctions were plainly the result of the intervention of God in (Genesis 11) 5 chapters later. There is no intimation here that the lines of Seth & Cain kept themselves seperate or were even instructed to. The injunction to remain seperate was given to the descendants of Issac & Jaco much later. Genesis 6:12 confirms that "All Flesh" had corrupted his way upon the earth.

(4) There is no evidence stated or implied that the line of Seth was godly. Only one person was translated from the judgement to come, Enoch. And only 8 were given the protection of the ark. No one beyond Noah's family was accounted worthy to be saved. If the line of Seth were so faithfull why did they perish in the flood?

(5)Jude 6,7 speaks about Angels keeping not their first estate....and going after strange flesh. This passage of scripture clearly seems to fit the alien intrusion of Genesis 6.

If the intercourse between the "Sons of God" & the "Daughters of Men" were merely marriages between Sethites & Cainites, it seems impossible to explain this passage, and the reason why some fallen angels are imprisoned and others are free to roam the heavenlies.

(6)The strange offspring continued after the flood "There were Nephilim in the earth in those days and also after that" ( Gen 6:4). The Sethite view fails to meaningfully address the prevailing conditions "also after that". It offers no insight into the presence of the subsequent "Giants" in the land of canaan.

After considering these thoughts and others on the matter which I haven't covered, it seems clear to me that the "Angel" view however disturbing, is the clear, direct, presentation of the Biblical text. Corroborated by multiple N.T references and was so understood by both early Jewish and Christian scholarship.

[EricH]

The above are the 2 classic positions on the text. Neither is without its difficulties. It just depends on which difficulties one is most comfortable living with. The seth interpretation has the immediate context as its strongest support. The technical term "sons of God" did come to have the meaning of angels in passages that were written after Genesis. But to read this technical meaning back onto a text that was written before these clearer attestations, does not place one on absolutely sure lexical grounds. It is always dangerouse to read a meaning back, than to carry it forward. In other words, this argument would hold more weight ig the exegete could show that the terms "sons of God" meant angels during the time that Moses wrote.

In addition, we have no texts that support the idea of demons ever producing offspring. There are good exegetes on both sides of this issue. There are holes in both sides of the issue. It depends on which holes one is most comfortable living with.