Hebrews 6

[Guest Scofield]

I believe in eternal security. Once you

[whatsitmean]

I believe in the eternal security of the believer. If one contiunes to act positively on his/her belief in Jesus Christ they are secure.

In my present state of understanding, I have to say that I believe a truely saved born again person can be totally lost. Besides the numerous NT verses that are quite difficult to understand in any other way, something else occured to me recently in this context.

Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

Deu 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

For your second question, the wording of the Apostle is very strong and unambiguous. There is only one way to understand

[peaches]

there is a thread that just started about this in conntoversial issues . . u guys might wanna go there and add ur two cents worth

[Ovedya]

I believe in eternal security. Once you

[endure4salvation]

When dealing with the Bible, we must realize that we are reading a TRANSLATION that often times doesn't render the correct tense verbs and the like in translating.

Hebrews 6 is saying that as long as someone is continuing to crucify Christ, they cannot repent because they are lost in their sins.

And as for God-man's long post, he states that they are already saved and don't need to be re-saved, but he failed to read a few verses later when it clearly states:

But that land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end, IT WILL BE BURNED!!!

In other words, such people will GO TO HELL (unless of course one things that one can be cursed and be burned while in heaven.....)

[endure4salvation]

Don't forget to read the rest of Hebrews to get the full context. Here are a few quotes from it.

2:1-3

...we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.  For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

3:6

But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house.  And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

3:12-14

See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.  But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.  We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

Another verse that stresses perseverance and goes as far as to say that we can depart from God because of unbelief. WOW!

4:1,11

Therefore, since the promise of entering His rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it...let us therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

The writer of Hebrews is stressing over and over that it is our responsibility to persevere.

5:9

And, once made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.

6:11-12

We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.  We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

Again, perseverance is our responsibility, not God's to force it upon us. And we only inherit what is promised if we continue in the faith with patience!

6:15

And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.

One more verse showing perseverance is our responsibility, just as it was with Abraham.

9:28

...so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.

So Jesus brings salvation to those that are currently waiting for Him, not for those that are backslidden or are in willful sin. What happens to those that are willfully sinning? What does the Bible say?

10:26-27

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

What? Am I reading this right? The key word here is received. This shows ownership. These people have been saved because of this key verse. And yet if a saved person keeps on sinning with no desire to change their lives to conform to Christ likeness after being saved then what happens to them? Judgment with raging fire. They are sent where the enemies of God are. Very interesting, indeed!

10:35-39

So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.  You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.  For in just a very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.  But My righteous one will live by faith.  And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.  But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Again perseverance is the responsibility of the individual, not God. He will help us, but we have freewill to reject His gift if we should so choose.

12:25-29

See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.  If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from Him who warns us from heaven?  At that time His voice shook the earth, but now He has promised "Once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heavens."  The words, "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken--that is, created things--so that what cannot be shaken may remain.  Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire."

[Guest Scofield]

Hebrew 10 speaks about professed Christians who for a while, identify themselves with a local church, but then deliberately sin and turn from Christ. They were never born again and now they never can be.

...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. would mean the person has rejected Christ's sacrifice and God has no other sacrifice that will save him.

It

[whatsitmean]

I do not understand your position here G-m. I think it is very common for new and immature Christians to have to re-repent. That doesn

[sagz4Christ]

I have done a small study on this passage in Hebrews. (Heb. 6:4-9). I have found this to be one of the mpst difficult passages to interpret. And There seems to be a different interpretation for this passage as there are commentators on the Bible. Recently, I came across J. Vernon McGee and his books on the Bible. I grabbed the ones dealing with Hebrews and imediately turned to this passage to see what he had to say. I have found there, a list of the major interpretations given this passage and one that seems to shed light on the whole subject. I had never heard this one before, so it gave me pause, but after thinking and praying and studying for about a month, I have come to the mind of falling more and more in line with this thought I am about to share with you.

Mind you, Dr. McGee lets the reader know from the start, he got this idea from from a publication by Dallas Theological Seminary called Bibliotheca Sacra. In it, he found an article by one Dr. J. B. Rowell, then a paster of the Central Baptist Church in Victoria, British Columbia. This is who gets full credit for the following...though McGee has developed it to fit his own understanding, of couse.

First of all, let me call to your attention that the writer os not discussing the question of salvation at all in this passage.  I believe he is describing saved people -- they have been enlightened, they have tasted of the heavenly gift...etc. etc.

The whole tenor of the text reveaels that he is speaking of rewards which are the result of salvation.  In verse 6 he says, "if they shall fallaway, to renew them again unto repentance" -- not to salvation, but to repentance.  Repentance is something that God has asked believers to do.  For example, read the seven letters to the seven churches in Asia, as recorded in Revelation 2 and 3.  He says to every one of the churches to repent.  That is His message for believers.

So the writer of Hebrews is talking about the fruit of salvation, not about the root of salvation.  Notice in verse 9 again: "But beloved, we are persuaded of better things of you, and things that accompany salvation (he hasn't been discussing salvation but the things that accompany salvation), though we thus speak."  He is speaking of thr fruit of the Christian's life and the reward that comes to him as a result.  The whole tenor of this passage is that he is warning them of the possibility of losing their reward.  There is danger, Paul said, of our entire works being burned up so that we will have nothing for which we could be rewarded (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

He goes on to elaborate this position, and then talks about the importance of works in the Christian's life, but that is a topic for another time. in another thread. I think this does a wonderful job of highlighting the main point of this passage, though there is another respected commentator that takes an entirely different approach to Hebrews 6:4-9. I may or may not post that one. This is the one I like the most though.

What do you think?

[whatsitmean]

I have flip-flopped on this passage a few times myself. I don