Proof in the existance of God

[Fovezer]

I understand your hesitancy.  Been there, done that.  I also need proof.  The only difference between us is that I found it when I quit arguing and truely opened my heart and mind to the Truth. 

There was another man named Nicodemus who showed the same caution...wanted proof.  He went to Jesus in the midnight hour to question him and Jesus patiently tried to witness to him as well.  Nicodemus had a hard time accepting Jesus' testimony and Jesus simply replied to him, "I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.  I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things." 

Physical evidence?  Paul said, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."  His point?  Open your eyes to the world around you and there is the physical evidence you are searching for.  Combine that with the testimony of credible witnesses and what more do you need? 

One problem with the carnal man is that he adapts too easily.  My point?  The miraculous quickly becomes the norm; therefore, we no longer recognize the miracles of God as anything special or out of the ordinary.  Jesus knew this when he refused to perform miracles as proof of his authority.  He knew the heart of man.

You, unlike the others, have responded very kindly, and I thank you.

See, Jesus still provided no evidence to Nicodemus. He just said, in a nutshell, "I am God, because I said so." Not very convincing. I have also open my eyes to everything around me. I, unlike you do not see a creator, but rather nature and hte wonders of it. I don't see a desiner, because the evidence points another way. I need physical, irrefutable evidence like evolution has. (BTW, are you a theistic evolutionist or a Young-Earth Creationist(YEC)?) So, if Jesus refused to provide proof he was god, how then do you know that he was not just a fraud?

I meant no offense and you know that.  Actually, I perceive that you are an intelligent and strong-willed person and it is hard for me to believe that you truely took any offense at all.  Regardless, who brought up hell?  But I offer you this Truth.  God offered His one and only Son as a sacrifice for our sin and those of us who are unwilling to accept that sacrifice made on our behalf will go into eternity separated from our Creator, a fate worse than hell.  So let me ask you this.  If you don't believe, then how could you find that statement offensive?  Is it possible that you post on this website looking for the Truth? 

Speaking from experience, that was my tactic.  I would argue with Christians just to see how they defended their faith.  I was actually pretty bad and bold even to the point of going to a Methodist Church Youth revival during which they showed a film on hell.  After the movie, I raised my hand and asked the youth minister how he knew hell to be like that?  Had he visited?  Needless to say, I was never invited back.

Fovezer, I enjoyed reading your posts.  Your intellect is obvious.  My last piece of advice for what it's worth, don't let your intellect get in the way of the Truth.

Yes, I know that you meant no offense. After re-reading the statement you made, I can see that when I read if first and replied, I read it differently. I first read it as an arrogant statement on my beliefs, but now I see it as a general statement about the others. I see what you mean know. I apologize. Is it possible that I post on this website looking for the Truth? Yes, anything is possible. I don't think so, but you never know.

The Methodist Church thing, now that's funny. I don't know what you mean, but it's funny.

Thank you for you compliment, and I wish all the posters here were as friendly as you, but, obviously, they are not. DOn't let my intellect get in the way of the truth? Is that even possible? Maybe, using my intellect, I have found the truth, and that is that the is no god. Right?

Anyways, thanks for your kindness and I look forward to your response.

[sagz4Christ]

wonderful!

I know know of what kind of links to look for for you. Though I wonder at actually finding anything you will agree with. I found that psychology one a bit over my head as well, though I figured you would understand more than I would.

I want to ask you if you know anything about the half-life of (I think) uramium found in (I think) granite. It is a geological question and I am not sure how much you know about that subject. I have something interestingfor you if you know alittle bit about it.

Anyway....creationists.....and evolutionists are both presenting theories based on what they find. We would do well to understand that when something is presented for, or against either case, itis presented as theory...or opinion I think is the word you used. What we base our theories or opinions on is going to be determined by our preconcieved ideas about what is true or not.

It is the idea of science in general to change and mold those ideas into something based on FACT. How we get to that fact is what is the interest of each scientist (in a perfect world).

What you said about evidence 8 being only opinion that doesn't hold water, is in fact, an opinion based on what you believe to be true. I can respect that, but you have to understand that people also think, and intelligently, that the opposite is just an opinion that doesn't hold any water.

We would do well to undrstand and perhaps shed a little light on the Laws of Thermodynamics. They would do very well to help guide and put some boundries on our debate here.

I leave it up to you which way to take this.

All I ask is that we talk scientificly (new word) and not derogatorily (another new word).

I am looking for sites more in line with what you are looking for. I have a better understanding on what you want.

~serving Christ in faith.

[WayneB]

Fovezer,

I appreciate your kind words and will respond when I have more time. My parents, siblings and children should be here here soon for our Thanksgiving weekend together. It will be a weekend of overeating, football and catching up. Once they get here, they take a lot of attention. My wife is in the kitchen getting tonight's snacks and soup ready for the ravinous mob. So give me some time and I'll even explain the Methodist Church thing later.

By the way, I am a creationist and I believe that God created the world. It never mattered to me whether it took place 6000 years ago or 60 million years ago. See, the process of creation doesn't matter to me (anymore). What matters most is the origin of creation. I do not believe that the world is a result of blind chance or probability. God created it. C.S. Lewis said he started to become convinced of a creator when he wondered whether creation's "incredible vastness, it's prescision and order and enormous complexity reflected some kind of intellegence". After much research and discussion with Christian friends whose intellegence and witness he respected, he decided that the answer to that question was yes. He asserted that the universe was filled with "signposts like the starry heavens above and the moral law within". Is it hard cold facts? Yes, I believe so but y'all have already debated those topics so I won't go there.

It seems I had more time than I thought, The folks haven't shown up yet. Probably checking into the hotel. So I'll go on. Regarding Jesus' testimony of himself, he never said I am God becasue I say so. Actually, he said, "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid." Who was the other? Some say John the Bapstist. Some say the miraculous works performed through the Father. Others say it was the prophets that prophesized Jesus as Mesiah. They are all right. So Jesus never stood on just his own testimony. He knew there was those of us that would not accept that and His goal was not to condemn the world but save it.

Well, I really got to go now and help my wife cut vegetables for the dip. Have a great holiday and we'll talk later.

God Bless you friend,

Wayne

[irishcowboy]

How he writes this, it is wrong. You will not see a half-man/half-ape combo. That is a misconception. What you will see is an ape-like creature that branched in its evolutionary tree, and one became humans, and the other, apes. The common ancestor could be more human-like or more ape-like, but definitely not a combination.

how interesting, being there is no proof of this what so ever then some one saying that it is...

did you know that the human body is closer to a frogs body sturcture then an apes, or monkeys... the muscles are even closer to that of a pigs ( if we want to start looking for things to compare with ) ..... you may ask,,,

A Pig?....... yea, the missionaries that have infiltrated some of the canibal tribes have on occasssion eaten human, they thought they was eating wild pig until they found out they was eating human..... so why not say we came from pigs.....

there is no proof or evidence of any sort that we come from any line of apes, monkeys, gorillas.... none, DNA dont even line up with that issue.....

DNA now, if you to to Israel, and take blood samples of the folks that are from the Levite tribe, and go and unburry the bones of those in the past from the same tribe, you will find DNA matching

has it ever occured to you that maybe the evidence that people are giving you is 100% truth, and that you are dismissing truth as fable? cause you dont really want the truth? you want answers that make you feel good?

like the Israelites, they wanted to be like the other nations and have a King ........ they wanted things like the other nations, to rely on man over God....

just like in this world today, some cultures need statues, others need pictures, others need humans...... some dont need anything but God...... that is the way God wants it...

unfortunatly, too many need something visual inorder to believe, like Thomas, would not believe until he seen the nail holes in the hands of Jesus, and the wound in His side.....

faith is not always having to see something to believe it..

you see, i believe i have a brain, even thou i have never seen it.... I believe you have one, and hopefully never get to see yours.....

anyways, almost every one has something that they believe in that they do not see..... if we have to see something to believe in it, then what you do not see does not exist.... that would also include your family when they are not around.....

hmmmmm, for that matter, i have never seen you, and dont know if I ever will, so are you sure that you even exist???? by the way, just showing me a picture is not evidence enough to prove that you exist.... for that could be a computer generated picture.... or one that some one else that dont exist could have made......

something to think about also, look around you.... do you see people that have long hair??? probably so, that means barbers and hairdressers dont exist..... I dont see any, and if there were some then there would be no one with long hair.....

wow, thinking about that, there must not be any one that can sew, for look at all the cloths that have holes in them, that need mending, so there are no tailors either...

and the cars with all those dents, and scratches and all, must not be any people that do body work..... and the ones broke down on the road, i guess all the mechanics disappeared.........

so do you need proof? physical proof??? to believe in something??? if you do, lets start by seeing if you actually have a brain..... I know i do, I believe I do, so I dont have to look to see if I have one.....

those that needed proof when Jesus is the Son of God was given when he rose from the dead three days after he was Crucified..... those that believed by seeing and there were those that believed by hearing...

the first wittnesses to His raising from the dead, were females. and if you check out the culture, a woman was not normally used as a wittness....

there were many many things that Jesus did on this earth while He walked it as a human, that prove that He was not just a man.... but greater then just a man....

mohomad didnt do much, budah did not do much, confussious didnt do much..... all combined, they did less in their entire lives, and their followers lives then Jesus did in three short years.......

as was mentioned earlier, no matter what proof is given to you, even if we was to bring the physical Jesus to you so that you could meet Him face to face, right now, you would still refute it..... so what does it really matter what evidence is given you...

someday, you will know the truth, when you are bowing down proclaiming Jesus as Lord...... for every knee will bow, and every tongue confess....... there is a differance thou, some will be bowing and confessing while begging for mercy, prior to being cast into the lake of fire

,,,,,,,,,,others will be bowing down and confessing Him out of Joy and Happiness that they will get to be with Him thru out eternity................

mike

[Adstar]

Fovezer

The proof of the existence of God is in the Word Of God the message of the Messiah Jesus is not of this world. I have come to the belief that one must be open to the Word Of God in their heart before God reveals the truth to one.

I know you have quoted a dictionary on the meaning of the word Faith but a dictionary does not surpass the truth of scriptures.

I know there is a God and I know that God is the God of Abraham. He has been revealed to me through the Word Of God Jesus. I believe that all those who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah will be tormented for eternity in a lake of fire. Therefore i will continue to witness to the unbelievers all the days of my life. I know that many will not receive the truth I cannot do much about this as the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink"

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: It is not a Christians Job to prove God is. Its our job to deliver Gods message the best way we can so that people " MAY " be saved.

[Fovezer]

how interesting, being there is no proof of this what so ever then some one saying that it is...

did you know that the human body is closer to a frogs body sturcture then an apes, or monkeys... the muscles are even closer to that of a pigs ( if we want to start looking for things to compare with ) ..... you may ask,,,

A Pig?....... yea, the missionaries that have infiltrated some of the canibal tribes have on occasssion eaten human, they thought they was eating wild pig until they found out they was eating human..... so why not say we came from pigs.....

there is no proof or evidence of any sort that we come from any line of apes, monkeys, gorillas.... none,  DNA dont even line up with that issue.....

DNA now, if you to to Israel, and take blood samples of the folks that are from the Levite tribe, and go and unburry the bones of those in the past from the same tribe, you will find DNA matching

What are you talking about?!?!?! Our body is definitely NOT like a frogs. Were did you get that from? We are, basically, a less-hairy ape. Now a pig? The missionaries probably thought it was pig because there are boars over there and that is what most tribes hunt. DNA doesn't line up? So you mean the fact that we are OVER 99% similiar genetically to apes means nothing? Similar features and social skills means nothing? Do you know anything about science? At all? Of course DNA samples from THE SAME SPECIES will match. That proves nothing.

has it ever occured to you that maybe the evidence that people are giving you is 100% truth, and that you are dismissing truth as fable? cause you dont really want the truth? you want answers that make you feel good?

like the Israelites, they wanted to be like the other nations and have a King ........ they wanted things like the other nations, to rely on man over God....

just like in this world today, some cultures need statues, others need pictures, others need humans...... some dont need anything but God...... that is the way God wants it...

unfortunatly, too many need something visual inorder to believe, like  Thomas,  would not believe until he seen the nail holes in the hands of Jesus, and the wound in His side.....

No, it hasn't, because the evidence provided does not hold water. It is way to easy to refute, and has benn done many times, only to be very easily proven false. Fortunately that means that humans are coming to their senses and now will demand proof, rather than taking someones word for it.

faith is not always having to see something to believe it..

you see, i believe i have a brain, even thou i have never seen it.... I believe you have one, and hopefully never get to see yours.....

anyways, almost every one has something that they believe in that they do not see..... if we have to see something to believe in it, then what you do not see does not exist.... that would also include your family when they are not around.....

Unfortunately, your argument is void. If I wanted to, I could cut open our heads and hand you the brains. Can you do that with god?

hmmmmm, for that matter, i have never seen you, and dont know if I ever will, so are you sure that you even exist????  by the way, just showing me a picture is not evidence enough to prove that you exist.... for that could be a computer generated picture.... or one that some one else that dont exist could have made......

something to think about also, look around you.... do you see people that have long hair??? probably so, that means barbers and hairdressers dont exist..... I dont see any, and if there were some then there would be no one with long hair.....

wow, thinking about that, there must not be any one that can sew, for look at all the cloths that have holes in them, that need mending, so there are no tailors either...

and the cars with all those dents, and scratches and all, must not be any people that do body work..... and the ones broke down on the road, i guess all the mechanics disappeared.........

See, this is argument is no good. If you wanted to, you could go physically see those people. You could shake their hand, and watch them do their job. Can you go physically meet god?

so do you need proof? physical proof??? to believe in something???  if you do, lets start by seeing if you actually have a brain..... I know i do, I believe I do, so I dont have to look to see if I have one.....

those that needed proof when Jesus is the Son of God was given when he rose from the dead three days after he was Crucified..... those that believed by seeing and there were those that believed by hearing...

the first wittnesses to His raising from the dead, were females. and if you check out the culture, a woman was not normally used as a wittness....

there were many many things that Jesus did on this earth while He walked it as a human, that prove that He was not just a man.... but greater then just a man....

mohomad didnt do much, budah did not do much, confussious didnt do much..... all combined, they did less in their entire lives, and their followers lives then Jesus did in three short years.......

as was mentioned earlier, no matter what proof is given to you, even if we was to bring the physical Jesus to you so that you could meet Him face to face, right now, you would still refute it..... so what does it really matter what evidence is given you...

No, not proof, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to PROVE god exists. I would like some very strong, irrefutable evidence.

someday, you will know the truth, when you are bowing down proclaiming Jesus as Lord...... for every knee will bow, and every tongue confess....... there is a differance thou, some will be bowing and confessing while begging for mercy, prior to being cast into the lake of fire

,,,,,,,,,,others will be bowing down and confessing Him out of Joy and Happiness that they will get to be with Him thru out eternity................

That'll be the day. A loving god, who, in your opinion, gave me this mind, and, since he must be all-knowing, knows I'll reject him, yet still sends me to hell for not blindly following something. Sounds rather sadistic to me.

[Fovezer]

Sorry, SAGZ4CHRIST, I just now noticed this post.

wonderful!

I know know of what kind of links to look for for you.  Though I wonder at actually finding anything you will agree with.  I found that psychology one a bit over my head as well, though I figured you would understand more than I would.

I have never seen a psychological argument used as evidence for the existance of a god, and I am glad to see something new for a change. I have never been interested in psychology, though, so I cannot make any real good evaluation of it.

I want to ask you if you know anything about the half-life of (I think) uramium found in (I think) granite.  It is a geological question and I am not sure how much you know about that subject.  I have something interestingfor you if you know alittle bit about it.

Shoot. I am interested in hearing it.

Anyway....creationists.....and evolutionists  are both presenting theories based on what they find.  We would do well to understand that when something is presented for, or against either case, itis presented as theory...or opinion I think is the word you used.  What we base our theories or opinions on is going to be determined by our preconcieved ideas about what is true or not.

Do you mean a scientific theory or the layman's type of theory(which is actually more a hypothesis)? There is is a huge difference. Yes, I can see you point about preconcived truths, but if an overwhelming amont of evidence points the other way, wold you not abandon your preconcieved truths for the real truth?

It is the idea of science in general to change and mold those ideas into something based on FACT.  How we get to that fact is what is the interest of each scientist (in a perfect world).

I agree. At least I see you have an understanding of science.

What you said about evidence 8 being only opinion that doesn't hold water, is in fact, an opinion based on what you believe to be true.  I can respect that, but you have to understand that people also think, and intelligently, that the opposite is just an opinion that doesn't hold any water.

I see you point, and I repect his opinion and his right to have that opinion, but to take his opinion and try to use it to disprove evolution is an entirely different story, and that is why I called it a baseless argument and why it also holds no water.

We would do well to undrstand and perhaps shed a little light on the Laws of Thermodynamics.  They would do very well to help guide and put some boundries on our debate here.

What about the Laws of Thermodynamics? Post your thoughts so I can better understand what you mean.

I leave it up to you which way to take this.

I don't care. I really don't know which way to go. If you feel it neccessary, you could always start a new thread, and we could have a more structured debate there. Or we could continue here. Its up to you.

All I ask is that we talk scientificly (new word) and not derogatorily (another new word).

I am looking for sites more in line with what you are looking for.  I have a better understanding on what you want.

I am all for that, and that is all I've wanted to do, but many people here HAVE talked derogatorily (I stole your word) to me, and I don't appreciate it. You and Saved_By_Grace have been extemely kind, and I respect you and your opinions a lot more than many of the people here.

I'll be waiting for the links, and if you want any informantion about anything, I'll be happy to provide it.

P.S. Are you a young-earth creationist, an old-eath creationist, or a theistic evolutionist(well, I don't think you are this, because you provided a like to arguments against evolution, but I had to put it anyways)? Just curious so I can better debate with you.

[Fovezer]

Fovezer,

I appreciate your kind words and will respond when I have more time.  My parents, siblings and children should be here here soon for our Thanksgiving weekend together.  It will be a weekend of overeating, football and catching up.  Once they get here, they take a lot of attention.  My wife is in the kitchen getting tonight's snacks and soup ready for the ravinous mob.  So give me some time and I'll even explain the Methodist Church thing later.

No problem, and I am interested in that Methodist thing.

By the way, I am a creationist and I believe that God created the world.  It never mattered to me whether it took place 6000 years ago or 60 million years ago.  See, the process of creation doesn't matter to me (anymore).  What matters most is the origin of creation.  I do not believe that the world is a result of blind chance or probability.  God created it.  C.S. Lewis said he started to become convinced of a creator when he wondered whether creation's "incredible vastness, it's prescision and order and enormous complexity reflected some kind of intellegence".  After much research and discussion with Christian friends whose intellegence and witness he respected, he decided that the answer to that question was yes.  He asserted that the universe was filled with "signposts like the starry heavens above and the moral law within".  Is it hard cold facts?  Yes, I believe so but y'all have already debated those topics so I won't go there.

Hey, at least you seem open to all possibilities for how life came about on this planet, and I respect you even more for that, and I also respect your right to believe God created the universe, because, truth be told, there is not much evidence at all for how the universe came into being. You may see that as cold hard facts, but I don't. Could a god have created the universe? It's possible. Now the question is "Which God?"

It seems I had more time than I thought,  The folks haven't shown up yet.  Probably checking into the hotel.  So I'll go on.  Regarding Jesus' testimony of himself, he never said I am God becasue I say so.  Actually, he said, "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.  There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid."  Who was the other?  Some say John the Bapstist.  Some say the miraculous works performed through the Father.  Others say it was the prophets that prophesized Jesus as Mesiah.  They are all right.  So Jesus never stood on just his own testimony.  He knew there was those of us that would not accept that and His goal was not to condemn the world but save it.

But still, how do you know that these other guys are not lying? Or that they haven't been duped?

Well, I really got to go now and help my wife cut vegetables for the dip.  Have a great holiday and we'll talk later.

You have a great holiday, too.

[sagz4Christ]

I have never seen a psychological argument used as evidence for the existance of a god, and I am glad to see something new for a change. I have never been interested in psychology, though, so I cannot make any real good evaluation of it.

To be honest, I haven't heard of one either. That is part of the reason I posted that link. I am reading through it too and find it incredibly interesting. I though, have been interested in this subject, and have learned about a few things like body language, and why peple react to things the way they do. Now, mind you, I am not an expert, and have a shaky understanding of all this, but it interests me none-the-less.

Shoot. I am interested in hearing it.

I will get to this later in the weekend. I am at a friends house watching their dog so I don't have my links handy. I have to search for them again. This idea of the half-life of uranium in rocks speaks of a young earth theory, though it is possible to conclude the findings as shaky...or as you put it..."holding no water." I mention this as only one scientific way of presenting proof of God. Just something to make you think.

Do you mean a scientific theory or the layman's type of theory(which is actually more a hypothesis)? There is is a huge difference. Yes, I can see you point about preconcived truths, but if an overwhelming amont of evidence points the other way, wold you not abandon your preconcieved truths for the real truth?

Actually, they are relatively similar, though the scientist (hopefully) is basing his theory on SCIENTIFIC evidence. The layman is basing his theory on what the scientist thinks is true. At least this is my undrstanding of it. And like Saved by Grace, I too have pondered the vastness of space, and the laws in ourselves and come to the conclusion that I hold. I also believe this to be truth. BUt like he said, that has already been discussed, so we have to approach this from a different angle. That is what I am offering to do.

I see you point, and I respect his opinion and his right to have that opinion, but to take his opinion and try to use it to disprove evolution is an entirely different story, and that is why I called it a baseless argument and why it also holds no water.

Well, to him, it may not be an opinion, and if it is, he thinks it is based on fact, so he is well within reasonable bounds to use that to try and disprove evolution. That is what I was getting at. It is the same with you. WHat you believe to be fact, is fact to you, although there are people that consider it to be opinion. I gotta tell you that there are things you hold as fact that I think are only opinion, but then again, the opposite is true as well. It is both of ourjobs to find out what the REAL TRUTH is in order to know what opinion is. This is what I hope to accomplish with you, and it sounds like you are willing.

What about the Laws of Thermodynamics? Post your thoughts so I can better understand what you mean.

This will have to wait til next week sometime, as I need to find my notes as I am not really familiar, and not comforatble talking about this off the top of my head (I keep telling you I am not smart )!!

I don't care. I really don't know which way to go. If you feel it neccessary, you could always start a new thread, and we could have a more structured debate there. Or we could continue here. Its up to you.

Well, that said, let us try to keep this thread open as long as possible. If we start branching out into other extreems, then we can start something new. If need be, we can always go to PM or email as well. I am open to pretty much anything. But this is as good a place as any for me.

I am all for that, and that is all I've wanted to do, but many people here HAVE talked derogatorily (I stole your word) to me, and I don't appreciate it. You and Saved_By_Grace have been extemely kind, and I respect you and your opinions a lot more than many of the people here.

I'll be waiting for the links, and if you want any informantion about anything, I'll be happy to provide it.

I know how you have been treated here, and for that I apologize profusly. I ask that you just understand that people are only posting out of zeal for the Lord and concern for your soul. It reminds me of a story of a Barber evangelist.

One day, he was hyped up to witness Christ to the first person that walked in. Well, a guy came in and asked for a shave. AS he leaned back in the chari, he noticed a sign on the cieling that said, "REPENT OR PERISH!"

After the Barber lathered his customer up. and as he was sharpening his razor, he asked his customer, "SO, my friend, are you prepared to die?"

The customer bolted out of the shop with shaving cream all over his face!!

WE have all done something like that in one way or another. It is just that we (most of the time) don't think before we speak. This is something that recently, I have been attempting to change about myself.

I look forward to whatever we find ahead of us.

~serving Christ in faith

P.S. Are you a young-earth creationist, an old-eath creationist, or a theistic evolutionist(well, I don't think you are this, because you provided a like to arguments against evolution, but I had to put it anyways)? Just curious so I can better debate with you.

well, I spoke of a young earth above with the rock thing, though I would not really consider myself to be one. I don't really think of myself as an old-earth creationist either.

You thought right about the theistic evolutionist thing. I think personally it is a contradiction in terms. The God I know; the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob; the God of the Bible and Jesus, is not only the Creator of all things, He is also what sustains us. So we call Him our Sustainer as well. Those that argue theistic evolution are trying to find common ground in the middle somewhere of two diametrically opposed ideas. This is where the Laws of Thermodynamics come in, but like I said, we will have to wait to get into that.

To answer your question about my views, I have to say that I probably line up with Saved by Grace on this issue. I care little about a young earth, old earth, or whatever. You know I oppose theistic evolution, but that is me. I would probably lean more towards a young earth theory, though there are questions that really need to be answered satisfactorily for me to embrass that idea fully. I am open to anthing. I hold as fact that there IS a God though, and that God is the God of Jesus the Christ.

I will start tomorrow (If I can find the time!)

[irishcowboy]

you can not logically (by human standards, being our wisdom is pure foolishness to God ) figure God out.

i feel for you, for that day will come that you will stand before God and have to explain your existance and your entire being and life to Him, just prior to God pronouncing sentence on you, and if you have rejected the Lord, you will be rejecting eternal life and being thrown into the lake of fire....

God still allows U-TURNS (for now anyways )

mike