Total Depravity

[endure4salvation]

ENDURE:

Are you saying you cannot be saved without baptism?

cf. thief on the cross; person dying in a plane crash (repent before crash).

The thief on the cross died BEFORE the commandment was given that all believers were to be baptized, right? So he died ON THE OTHER SIDE, therefore he (and all other pre-resurrection people) could be saved without being baptized.

As for the person dying in a plane crash....who is to say? I am not God.

Baptism is not a work; the false teaching of baptismal regeneration makes it a work salvation.

When did I preach baptismal regeneration? All I said was we need to be obedient to God's commands in order to enter heaven, just like Jesus, Paul, and John all preached.

How can one have a work when one has no part in it except to stand there (in obedience by the way).

How are we included in Christ?

[endure4salvation]

How are we included in Christ?

I want to make sure that you see this question.

Before we receive Christ, we are not included in Christ, but sometime after we receive Christ, we are included in Christ.

At what particular moment are we included in Christ? I would like Scripture please.

[Adstar]

"5 Psalm 51:5

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. "

Where did this come from ?

Psalm 51 NKJV

5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,

And in sin my mother conceived me.

Psalm 51 KJV

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 51 NASB

Behold, I was (10) brought forth in iniquity,

And in sin my mother conceived me.

Psalm 51 Darby

5 Behold, in iniquity was I brought forth, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Oh I found it

Psalm 51 NIV

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,

sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Ah the NIV my favorite per-version

This is the same verson that calls satan Jesus

KJV

Isaiah 14:12

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

yep satan = son of the morning

KJV

Revelation 22:16

16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

yep Jesus = the bright and morning star

NKJV

Isaiah 14:12

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

yep satan = son of the morning

NKJV

Revelation 22:16

"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star

yep Jesus = the bright and morning star

Darby

Isaiah 14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning! Thou art cut down to the ground, that didst prostrate the nations!

yep satan = son of the morning

Darby

Revelation 22:16

16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

yep Jesus = the bright and morning star

NIV

Isaiah 14:12

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

yep Jesus = O morning star :x: ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

NIV

Revelation 22:16

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[1] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Oh NIV says Jesus is also the bright morning star. Does that mean the Jesus and satan are the same individual?

All praise The Ancient Of Days

[sagz4Christ]

NIV

Isaiah 14:12

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

yep Jesus =  O morning star  ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

NIV

Revelation 22:16

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[1] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Oh NIV says Jesus is also the bright morning star. Does that mean the Jesus and satan are the same individual?

My friend, upon first glancing at this problem with the translation, I was about to throw my NIV away!!

Then I looked, and noticed that everything is cool..

Follow me here.......

Isaiah 14:12

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

here, as you pointed out, Lucifer is translated "morning star." But if we look at the next identifier, we see "son of the dawn." A.k.a. "son of the morning." It does seem shakey, but it's there.

satan = "morning star, Lucifer, son of the morning, son of the dawn."

Revelation 22:16

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[1] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

The one thing about most translations, besides the different words they use, is also the sentence structure(sp). The NIV is what they call a "dynamic equivalence" translation. There is also "literal" (KJV NASB RSV NRSV) and "free" (PHILLIPS, LB) translations.

If you look at the bolded section, you will find all the words that idetify Jesus as the Bright and Morning Star, but is a different order. An order so as to make it seem (unfortuenately) that He is just the bright morning star.

However, another thing I want to point out, is that both the Darby and NIV call Him the bright morning star. There is a difference, and looking a tad closer, we can see it.

~your servant in Christ

[godrulz]

O.T. salvation= looks forward to the Lamb of God by FAITH.

N.T. salvation= looks back to the Lamb of God by FAITH.

Faith....>knowledge, love, trust, obey, receive, etc.

Salvation is faith in the person and work of the Lord Jesus. Baptism is an important step of obedience, but is not absolutely necessary for salvation (cf. death bed conversion....die before tank). One can be baptized as a dry sinner and come up a wet sinner. Heart repentance, faith, obedience are the conditions of salvation; not baptism, circumcision, Lord's supper, Mass, church, etc.

[endure4salvation]

Salvation is faith in the person and work of the Lord Jesus. Baptism is an important step of obedience, but is not absolutely necessary for salvation (cf. death bed conversion....die before tank). One can be baptized  as a dry sinner and come up a wet sinner. Heart repentance, faith, obedience are the conditions of salvation; not baptism, circumcision, Lord's supper, Mass, church, etc.

I have never suggested that works can earn salvation, because the Bible is clear that they cannot. But why do you think that we can deliberatly disobey the commandments of God and enter heaven, inspite of clear verses like:

Hebrews 10:26-27

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

If a Christian sins on purpose, he will be judged as a sinner and will be consumed in the same way the enemies of God will be.

James 2:26

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

A true saving faith will always have good deeds present as well.

Matthew 28:19,20

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Here Jesus commanded people to baptize new converts to Christianity and teach them to obey his commands.

Acts 5:32

We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.

God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him.

1 John 2:3,4

We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His commands. The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in Him.

If you don't obey God, you are not in Christ.

Romans 1:5

Through Him and for His name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

If one has faith, obedience always follows.

[godrulz]

I agree that genuine faith will involve obedience and good works. We are commanded to keep the Lord's Supper. Does this become essential for salvation? Out of 100s of commands, do we negate salvation (justification) if we do not obey every one in every degree all the time? Is it perhaps a matter of sancification, growth, maturity and will affect rewards/loss of reward or discipline rather than destiny?

1) Is obedience in a perfect degree an absolute for salvation? Is this concept debateable?

2) Specifically (if the above in not true), is baptism (and what else) explicitly a condition of salvation? If someone is not immersed (I assume you agree on this mode) but sprinkled, are they lost?

What denomination do you identify with? Church of Christ?

[sagz4Christ]

I agree that genuine faith will involve obedience and good works.

Amen. This is what I have been trying to say ALL this time!

Is it perhaps a matter of sancification, growth, maturity and will affect rewards/loss of reward or discipline rather than destiny?

*hoots and hollars for joy*

This is my question too!!

1) Is obedience in a perfect degree an absolute for salvation? Is this concept debateable?

wonderful question, godrulz....

2) Specifically (if the above in not true), is baptism (and what else) explicitly a condition of salvation? If someone is not immersed (I assume you agree on this mode) but sprinkled, are they lost?

It is the trouble one gets into when they mix the two concepts, I think anyway...

----------------------------------------------------------

The law of righteousness is born out of love. It is the desire to do the will of God that is called obedience. It is utter devotion to the Lord that comples us to endure. For the Christian who wants to "live on the edge," and try to test the boundries of God (get away with as much as he can), I would have to ask that Christian to search his heart and see if he really has the Spirit in him...for if he did, then he would not want to live on the edge. Our works jusify us before men...and ourselves...and we need to look at them as a gauge in our growth/walk with Christ. If we don't have them...where is our heart?

Genuine faith does not seek the boundries of God's will, tolerance, or ability to keep us "in the faith." Genuine faith seeks to hold on to the promises of Christ with all the strength in our feeble states as we have. In that sense, eternal life is secure, and unconditional. We will not always succeed in our endeavor to live a completely obedient life. In fact, we WILL fail more often than we would care to think about. Does this mean we have to keep asking Christ into our hearts and "re"-save us? No...it means we learn from our mistakes and "push on toward the upward call of Christ" (paraphrased).

With the unconditional love of God as our backbone, the love in our hearts TOWARD the same needs to work to the goal of being unconditional as well. If we find we are not willing, or able to work for that goal, we need to check the devotion in our hearts...is it in the right place? Is it resting the the strength and joy and assurance of our Lord? Or is it resting in our ability to do or not to do good works? If it is the later...we may not have genuine faith...we may not be on of His sheep. We may get to heaven and hear those fatal words "Depart from Me, I never knew you!"

If however, we find the opposite to be true, we need not fear our failures at "keeping the law," because our heart, and the Spirit in us will enevitably PUSH us that way. Even if we are unwilling to go, the Spirit will prick us and prod us until we have no choice BUT to obey.

As godrulz said...genuine faith WILL involve obedience and good works. They are a natural result/effect of the love being poured out of us directed to the One who put the hope in us and cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness.

I am getting tired now and losing my train of thought. I will continue when I am better able to think clearly!

Good night all..and God bless!!

~your humble servant in Christ

[BlindSeeker]

The law of righteousness is born out of love. It is the desire to do the will of God that is called obedience. It is utter devotion to the Lord that comples us to endure. For the Christian who wants to "live on the edge," and try to test the boundries of God (get away with as much as he can), I would have to ask that Christian to search his heart and see if he really has the Spirit in him...for if he did, then he would not want to live on the edge. Our works jusify us before men...and ourselves...and we need to look at them as a gauge in our growth/walk with Christ. If we don't have them...where is our heart?

Genuine faith does not seek the boundries of God's will, tolerance, or ability to keep us "in the faith." Genuine faith seeks to hold on to the promises of Christ with all the strength in our feeble states as we have. In that sense, eternal life is secure, and unconditional. We will not always succeed in our endeavor to live a completely obedient life. In fact, we WILL fail more often than we would care to think about. Does this mean we have to keep asking Christ into our hearts and "re"-save us? No...it means we learn from our mistakes and "push on toward the upward call of Christ" (paraphrased).

With the unconditional love of God as our backbone, the love in our hearts TOWARD the same needs to work to the goal of being unconditional as well. If we find we are not willing, or able to work for that goal, we need to check the devotion in our hearts...is it in the right place? Is it resting the the strength and joy and assurance of our Lord? Or is it resting in our ability to do or not to do good works? If it is the later...we may not have genuine faith...we may not be on of His sheep. We may get to heaven and hear those fatal words "Depart from Me, I never knew you!"

If however, we find the opposite to be true, we need not fear our failures at "keeping the law," because our heart, and the Spirit in us will enevitably PUSH us that way. Even if we are unwilling to go, the Spirit will prick us and prod us until we have no choice BUT to obey.

As godrulz said...genuine faith WILL involve obedience and good works. They are a natural result/effect of the love being poured out of us directed to the One who put the hope in us and cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness.

I am getting tired now and losing my train of thought. I will continue when I am better able to think clearly!

Good night all..and God bless!!

~your humble servant in Christ

Very refreshing.

Peace

William

[BlindSeeker]

ooops, did I say "very?"

I meant "extremely"