What happens to those without knowledge of Christ?

[Fiosh]

There are so many errors I don't know where to begin.

Without faith none of your works mean anything, Galatians is about ALL attempts at self justification. Christ already saved us, IF we are saved if we believe that in the bottom of our hearts, indeed we will obey Him as best we can out of love and joy, not out of pride, not thinking that somehow these works of ours mean anything beyond an expression of love for Christ. As Paul specifically says, we are saved and made righteous totally separate from our works, for by our works we DIE, they will never be enough.

Works do not save us, they are simply a reflection of Christ working in us, or not. The reason this is important is that if you believe that somehow your efforts save you, you fall from grace as Paul specifically says. It is critical to realize that we don't deserve ANYTHING from God, that we are dirty sinners to the very end. God does not see our sin for one reason, for the sake of His Son and His sacrifice. If we believe that we are "partners" in that salvation we take away the sacrifice of Christ. It is the main theme of most of the New Testament. Is obedience important, it sure is and I think you have provided many versus that speak of the importance of obedience.

But once again, all people with true faith in Christ will please God, will seek to please God. Does an unrepentant gross sinner please God? No, so why would anyone who has true faith do that, the answer is they wouldn't.

Your understanding is still wrong!! Man is NOT saved by faith alone and your understanding is implying that. Just because God and Christ demand obedience from us does not mean that we are taking anything fro what Christ did. That is why he said that if we love him we will keep his commandments and if we don't keep them we don't have the father nor the son.

You keep saying that works are a "reflection", but the bible says they are a justification.

God does see our sin that is why John made it so important that we realize that we do have sin so we can deal with it. We deal with it by repenting of it.

Even the act of repentance is a work.

[Candi770]

I say they are lost. I believe that God devinely appoints men as ministers of the gospel and many have been called to the uttermost and don't go-my bible tells me that if they don't go warn the people (when they were told-by God)-that the blood of those people are on their hands. There are too many intercessors and too many labors who are not doing their jobs. their are many faithful though-but they can't do it alone!

You spoke of muslims and other religions-I'm sorry they are without excuse-they persecute christians-I'm sure many have heard the message-put out of worldly fear they don't do it. But, there are many who do come to Jesus and suffer the consiquence on this earth.

The gospel is reaching many, many peoples.

But let not just make friends with the world, through the Holy Spirit, lets be bold enough to tell them the truth-you have them before you-are you afraid they will be angry or are you more concerned with their eternity????

[EricH]

There are so many errors I don't know where to begin.

Without faith none of your works mean anything, Galatians is about ALL attempts at self justification. Christ already saved us, IF we are saved if we believe that in the bottom of our hearts, indeed we will obey Him as best we can out of love and joy, not out of pride, not thinking that somehow these works of ours mean anything beyond an expression of love for Christ. As Paul specifically says, we are saved and made righteous totally separate from our works, for by our works we DIE, they will never be enough.

Works do not save us, they are simply a reflection of Christ working in us, or not. The reason this is important is that if you believe that somehow your efforts save you, you fall from grace as Paul specifically says. It is critical to realize that we don't deserve ANYTHING from God, that we are dirty sinners to the very end. God does not see our sin for one reason, for the sake of His Son and His sacrifice. If we believe that we are "partners" in that salvation we take away the sacrifice of Christ. It is the main theme of most of the New Testament. Is obedience important, it sure is and I think you have provided many versus that speak of the importance of obedience.

But once again, all people with true faith in Christ will please God, will seek to please God. Does an unrepentant gross sinner please God? No, so why would anyone who has true faith do that, the answer is they wouldn't.

Your understanding is still wrong!! Man is NOT saved by faith alone and your understanding is implying that. Just because God and Christ demand obedience from us does not mean that we are taking anything fro what Christ did. That is why he said that if we love him we will keep his commandments and if we don't keep them we don't have the father nor the son.

You keep saying that works are a "reflection", but the bible says they are a justification.

God does see our sin that is why John made it so important that we realize that we do have sin so we can deal with it. We deal with it by repenting of it.

And I think others are saying that your understanding appears to be incorrect. The relationship between faith and works that I see to be most biblical is that true saving faith produces works. Works do not partner with faith to produce salvation. They are a result of a salvation that has already taken place. So we are safe in saying that if a person claims to have faith and has no works, their faith is dead. That is because genuine faith will always produce works.

[HAZARD]

You know, one thing I am sure of is this. Jesus Christ died for every man woman and child who accepts Him and His sacrifice for them. He also paid the death penalty for those who had never heard of Him, God the Father, or God the Holy Ghost, or the gospel, as long as they have, lived the good life on the basis of the light they have recieved and followed and obeyed their own conscience regarding good and evil in the society and in the age in which they lived. Romans 2:12-16 is very clear on this.

You see, Paul stated in Romans 2:12-16 that God will do the right thing by EVERY MAN according to the light he has recieved. Paul said, "For as many as have sinned WITH OUT LAW SHALL ALSO PERISH WITH OUT LAW: and as many as have sinned IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW; (For not the hearers of the law are JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified. People who have never heard fo God, but who do the right thing in their society, and in the time they lived on the Earth shall be judged accordingly. For when the Gentiles which have NOT THE LAW, do BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these HAVING NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge THE SECRETS OF MEN BY JESUS CHRIST ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL!

Praise God for ever more, He is a Just and merciful God!

Haz.

and Christ said....... that there is only one way to the Father, and that is through the Son.... not mohomad, not buddah, not dali lama, not joe smith, not anyone but the SON..................

it is also written that it is not by works a man can get to Heaven,

yes, their conscience will help guide them, but with out Christ, they are lost......

as far as society, there is one rule that would not hold up in the Court of God, and that is what one sect follow and that is "If it doesn't hurt anyone, then it is ok" cheating on ones spouse may not hurt the spouse, should they never find out about it, does that make it right????

not according to the Word of God... even looking upon another with lust (who does that hurt).....

there are many rules of the lands that do not line up with the rules of God.... just cause it is legal, dont make it right....

Those with out Christ, do not see the first Resurrection..... those with out Christ have not accepted the Gift of Salvation, it has been offered, they are not accepting it, no matter how they live.......

if that was the way it would be, then why did Christ come to Earth??? if i could do good, and get to Heaven, then I would not need Christ..... but the thing is, NO ONE IS GOOD..... SAVE THE FATHER....... so, we all need to accept what has been offered to get into the Kingdom of Heaven...... the Free Gift of Salvation... we must accept it to have it, it is presented before us, for us to accept.....

just like if some one came to your house and offered you a birthday present..... you have a choice to make, to either reject it, or receive it... if you shut the dooor, you have not said you reject it, but your actions have shown that.....

The Gosple of Jesus Christ is being offered up in EVERY COUNTRY on this earth..... it is up to the people to accept the gift..... if they do not, they will be lost..... flat, cut, and dried..... no if's, and's or butttts about it

mike

Christ came to Earth to save all men who must first have heard of Him to Know Him, then accept Him and believe in Him. And, in coming, He also saved all men who have lived a good life in the society they lived in according to Pauls statement in Romans 2:12-16. You see, Paul stated in Romans 2:12-16 that God will do the right thing by EVERY MAN according to the light he has recieved. Paul said, "For as many as have sinned WITH OUT LAW SHALL ALSO PERISH WITH OUT LAW: and as many as have sinned IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW; (For not the hearers of the law are JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified. People who have never heard fo God, but who do the right thing in their society, and in the time they lived on the Earth shall be judged accordingly. For when the Gentiles which have NOT THE LAW, do BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these HAVING NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge THE SECRETS OF MEN BY JESUS CHRIST ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL!

Now if you can't get your mind around these Scriptures, then as a free moral agent you can believe what you wish. God will not condemn a man who had never heard of Him, Jesus, or His gospel, as long as the man lived properly, having not the law, but obeying the law in their heart and conscience, in other words, doing the right thing and not doing the things you mentioned which are sin. Have you heard of the Bush tribesmen of central Africa, The pygmies of the Amazon, The New Guinian Highlanders? Many thousands of these people have lived and died, and still to-day, have not heard of Jesus Christ.

[larryt]

There are so many errors I don't know where to begin.

Without faith none of your works mean anything, Galatians is about ALL attempts at self justification. Christ already saved us, IF we are saved if we believe that in the bottom of our hearts, indeed we will obey Him as best we can out of love and joy, not out of pride, not thinking that somehow these works of ours mean anything beyond an expression of love for Christ. As Paul specifically says, we are saved and made righteous totally separate from our works, for by our works we DIE, they will never be enough.

Works do not save us, they are simply a reflection of Christ working in us, or not. The reason this is important is that if you believe that somehow your efforts save you, you fall from grace as Paul specifically says. It is critical to realize that we don't deserve ANYTHING from God, that we are dirty sinners to the very end. God does not see our sin for one reason, for the sake of His Son and His sacrifice. If we believe that we are "partners" in that salvation we take away the sacrifice of Christ. It is the main theme of most of the New Testament. Is obedience important, it sure is and I think you have provided many versus that speak of the importance of obedience.

But once again, all people with true faith in Christ will please God, will seek to please God. Does an unrepentant gross sinner please God? No, so why would anyone who has true faith do that, the answer is they wouldn't.

Your understanding is still wrong!! Man is NOT saved by faith alone and your understanding is implying that. Just because God and Christ demand obedience from us does not mean that we are taking anything fro what Christ did. That is why he said that if we love him we will keep his commandments and if we don't keep them we don't have the father nor the son.

You keep saying that works are a "reflection", but the bible says they are a justification.

God does see our sin that is why John made it so important that we realize that we do have sin so we can deal with it. We deal with it by repenting of it.

And I think others are saying that your understanding appears to be incorrect. The relationship between faith and works that I see to be most biblical is that true saving faith produces works. Works do not partner with faith to produce salvation. They are a result of a salvation that has already taken place. So we are safe in saying that if a person claims to have faith and has no works, their faith is dead. That is because genuine faith will always produce works.

Hi CC,

Notice that it does not say that FAITH DIES, but is dead. The same as the state of all who know not the Lord Jesus Christ. We were all DEAD in trespasses and sin. If the faith does not produce good works, things done in obedience to the Word of God then it is dead, never made alive in Christ.

And here is a question for those that think they can participate in the salvation process. Can a dead man do anything? Go to any corpse and ask it if it will only take hold of your hand it will be raised up. I don't think you will get any response.

It is only Jesus Christ and all Jesus Christ in salvation. All who think they contribute to the salvation don't know Him and what He has done.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

LT

[Beta]

1Cor.3. our Salvation does not depend on our works, but they are never-the-less taken into consideration since they have to do with our Reward. If any man's work abides (by fire) he shall receive a reward v 14, if any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED yet so as by fire.v 15. ALL who have been building will be saved but those with better materials to better positions and those with inferior materials to lesser positions in the KoG.

To lose one's Salvation is if they have done nothing at all and have no good works of any kind. Quite a few Parables refer to these situations. People do not realize that there is work to be done in the KoG, it will not be a place of idleness. Jesus says in Jh.14 he has gone to prepare a place for us, a work-place non-the less even as his Father works and christ himself works hitherto. So we are saved by Grace but rewarded according to works, good works approved by God. Evil works stemming from our own opinions and disobedience also earn something = death, eternal death. (that is not eternal life in hell-fire, man does not have an immortal soul Mat.10 v 28)

ALL shall receive knowledge of Christ before their final judgement.

[Beta]

1Cor.3. our Salvation does not depend on our works, but they are never-the-less taken into consideration since they have to do with our Reward. If any man's work abides (by fire) he shall receive a reward v 14, if any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED yet so as by fire.v 15. ALL who have been building will be saved but those with better materials to better positions and those with inferior materials to lesser positions in the KoG.

To lose one's Salvation is if they have done nothing at all and have no good works of any kind. Quite a few Parables refer to these situations. People do not realize that there is work to be done in the KoG, it will not be a place of idleness. Jesus says in Jh.14 he has gone to prepare a place for us, a work-place non-the less even as his Father works and christ himself works hitherto. So we are saved by Grace but rewarded according to works, good works approved by God. Evil works stemming from our own opinions and disobedience also earn something = death, eternal death. (that is not eternal life in hell-fire, man does not have an immortal soul Mat.10 v 28)

ALL shall receive knowledge of Christ before their final judgement.

Man does have an immortal soul. Revelation proves this. The beast and false prophet were STILL in the lake of fire 1000 years after they were thrown into it.

Revelation 20:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice this, the devil, along with the beast and false prophet are tormented "for ever and ever."

Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Punishment obviously cannot be everlasting if the soul is not also everlasting. the soul of man is in fact immortal in the sense that it will "exist" forever, regardless of whether the person goes to heaven or hell. Those sent to hell will not have any light or any presence of God whatsoever, as Jesus said they would be cast into "outer darkness" and there would be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and they would "gnaw their tongues for pain".

[Beta]

should we perhaps be on another topic to discuss the ' immortal soul ' ?

[irishcowboy]

Now if you can't get your mind around these Scriptures, then as a free moral agent you can believe what you wish. God will not condemn a man who had never heard of Him, Jesus, or His gospel, as long as the man lived properly, having not the law, but obeying the law in their heart and conscience, in other words, doing the right thing and not doing the things you mentioned which are sin. Have you heard of the Bush tribesmen of central Africa, The pygmies of the Amazon, The New Guinian Highlanders? Many thousands of these people have lived and died, and still to-day, have not heard of Jesus Christ.

Let me ask you this........

if we can get to heaven with out knowing about Christ, by living a good life, then why did Christ come to earth??? why did He have to go through the paings of death, if we do not need Him to get to Heaven??

as far as people not hearing of Christ, those that you have listed have had the opertunity to have heard of Him...

in the 1960's, we had a set of missionaries that went to Africa (cant recall where exact) and as they were learning the language they were also trying to teach about Christ, and as they started teaching, some of the people started crying..... when the missionary asked the chieftain what was wrong, thinking they had said something to offend them, the chieftain said, no, they were not offended, but over joyed, for they knew of Him, but did not know His Name.......

in the approximate year of 33 AD in Ireland, Jesus was known about.... one day the sky grew black during the middle of the day, and the grounds shook, and when the sooth sayers/advisors were consulted about this it was told that a man that did nothing but good, had been executed in Jerusalem.... the leader took off across the mours running, he was going to avenge this man ( Jesus ) , he fell and impelled himself on his own sword..

even then as low tech as they were, they still knew of this man Jesus....

The Wise men knew of Him, with in moments of His Birth....

there have been DNA test done on a tribe in the southern part of Africa, that had said they are part of the Tribe of Levi, and they have also done DNA test on people in Israel that are part of the Tribe of Levi, and guess what...... they match..... hmmmmm

The Gosple of Jesus Christ is being broadcast into every country, thats right, every nation.... even if the nation does not authorize it, they can not stop the air waves from penitrating across their boarders......

as was mentioned before, even Paul did not recognize Jesus as the Son of God, was bent on getting rid of anyone that did... and yet, Christ snapped him out of that mode in just a moment.....

For as many as have sinned WITH OUT LAW SHALL ALSO PERISH WITH OUT LAW: and as many as have sinned IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW; (For not the hearers of the law are JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified.

your right, with out Christ, they will perish.... they will perish with out law, but they could live with Christ......

the only justification we have is that of Jesus Christ, the only righteousness we have is that of Christ......

Christ, Himself, stated, that the only way to the Father is through the Son.....

sorry, but that is what He said,

if we could get to Heaven by not knowing Christ and by just doing good, then Christ being crucified was a wasted thing.... and that I will not believe, nor even think about trying to teach for that is not what Christ taught.... Christ taught we had to have Him....... God even placed this plan in the works centuries before that Christ would be our redeemer..... not man......

Christ is the Only way...... there is no other way to Heaven..... for we all fall short.....

yes, Christ died that all might have salvation, but not all will accept it......

mike

[HAZARD]

Hi mate.

Yes, all may not accept it. But, I would say that all the billions of men, women, and children, who lived during the past ages and who died, never having heard of Christ, or the gospel, and were quickened with Christ at His resurrection would most probably accept it, wouldn't you?

Its because Jesus Christ died that all men now have a chance at salvation. Those who know Him since His life, death and resurrection, and did good, and those who never knew Him, "but" still did good.

"But now is Christ is risen from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept" (1 Cor. 15:20). For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Cor. 15:22).

Men are raised to share more or less, glory or more or less damnation, according to what they have done in life, according to (1 Cor. 15:40-50).

Edited November 1, 2006 by HAZARD