5 Point Calvanism

[Joshua-777]

v.13 Sin produced death in Paul through the law.

v.14 The law is spiritual not Paul.

v.15 Paul is speaking in regards to himself not the world and neither humankind. Paul used 'I' 'God's children', 'you' when he chose to do so. He did not understand with his mind what he did because what he wanted to do he did not

v.16 therefore he agrees that the law is good.

V.17 In Christ, it is not Paul ('I') who sins but the sin itself that lives in Paul. Sin lives in Paul thus far so does that equate to him having been born with a sin nature? He had a sin nature to be sure but was he born with it is my question?

V.18 Nothing good lives in Paul's sinful nature. He has the will to do what is good but not the strength to do so.

v.19 the sin nature has control over him

v.20 sin that lives in him does the things he did not want to do

Still am looking for a verse that says humankind is born with this sin nature or 'flesh'.

Then would what Paul said here count?

Romans 11:30-32

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

I used romans chapter 7 and 8, because 7 is presenting the law in the flesh, sin, and chapter 8 is a conclusion. I mainly used that because I relate to that personally,That is somthing that everyone I have talked to who knows the Lord can relate to, this passage is signifying that there is a war between our flesh and our spirit. Which there is.

All have and do sin, and all fall short of the glory of God.

[firehill]

v.13 Sin produced death in Paul through the law.

v.14 The law is spiritual not Paul.

v.15 Paul is speaking in regards to himself not the world and neither humankind. Paul used 'I' 'God's children', 'you' when he chose to do so. He did not understand with his mind what he did because what he wanted to do he did not

v.16 therefore he agrees that the law is good.

V.17 In Christ, it is not Paul ('I') who sins but the sin itself that lives in Paul. Sin lives in Paul thus far so does that equate to him having been born with a sin nature? He had a sin nature to be sure but was he born with it is my question?

V.18 Nothing good lives in Paul's sinful nature. He has the will to do what is good but not the strength to do so.

v.19 the sin nature has control over him

v.20 sin that lives in him does the things he did not want to do

Still am looking for a verse that says humankind is born with this sin nature or 'flesh'.

Then would what Paul said here count?

Romans 11:30-32

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

I used romans chapter 7 and 8, because 7 is presenting the law in the flesh, sin, and chapter 8 is a conclusion. I mainly used that because I relate to that personally,That is somthing that everyone I have talked to who knows the Lord can relate to, this passage is signifying that there is a war between our flesh and our spirit. Which there is.

All have and do sin, and all fall short of the glory of God.

Thanks for discussing this without attacking! How noble and Christlike of you.

Are you meaning, 'Then what would Paul said here count as evidence that we are born with the sin nature'? I believe in parts of Calvinism, therefore v.32 'God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all' absolutely counts! God will do as He wills, but I don't see this proving that we are 'born' with a sin or fallen nature/flesh'. At least 2 reasons I say this are because 1) all need Christ to overcome the weakness of the flesh (a concept spoken of many times in the NT) which included ofcourse Adam and Eve, 2) the Bible nowhere says that we are 'born' or inherit a sin 'nature/flesh'. Adam failed, as does all humankind (Romans 11:32) , but do we inherit a sin nature? Why would we inherit a/his sin nature/flesh? Without a doubt we inherit his weak nature/flesh since we are adam (humankind). We inherit the effects of the fall for sure, death of the flesh at least (death did enter the world, ya know and we are IN the world. See my above post about death and sin entering the world...) and we also inherit the knowledge of good and evil.

Being made in the image of God is our spirit I believe. If this is true are we born with flesh that dies yet not also with a spirit that dies but rather just without one? Are we BORN WITHOUT A SPIRIT? God is Spirit therefore I believe that God making humankind in His image with a spirit makes irrevocable all humans born/made... in His image. I mean if we are not even born with a spirit because 'it is dead' due to an inheritance of Adam then we aren't even born with a spirit at all? Yes? What does 'dead' mean? Lifeless, yes? If so then what happened to humankind being made in the divine image? Does the divine image die? If it does then why would the Bible report before Christ, about those in Ab's bosom and those on the other side who could see him?

Being born from above is being born of the Spirit . But also no doubt it is not like humans have dead spirits that become reborn but rather that we are born of the Spirit and NOT EVEN ADAM was born of the SPIRIT! I see that there is a big difference between humankind having been made in God's image (with an irrevocable spirit) and believers being born of the Spirit. After all does 'being made in the image of God' mean that we are made/born of the Spirit? I think NOT! No way. Christ is the Glory of God.

Are we born with a human spirit (the divine image) which transforms into a new creation when born from above or born without a human spirit (DI) but born from above?

The old (not the dead) has passed and the new has come! How can the old (meaning 'dead spirit') pass away if it were already dead?

[larryt]

1. T - Total Depravity: (Also called Radical Corruption) Man is born spiritually dead and cannot come to salving faith on his own at all. He's not sick with sin, he's dead. Therefore...your new heart must come before you actually "accept" Christ.

Can anyone provide just one scripture that says we are born with 'the' or 'a' sin nature? I mean an interpretation is not the same thing as what is actualy written. I happen to believe in OSAS and free-will and that neither are at odds with eachother. I also am in agreement with part of Calvinism.

Romans 7:13-25

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God

[larryt]

If you could help by supplying me with scriptures that contrast or dispute 5 point Calvanism, I would appreciate it.

Hi Sue,

I've seen several verses cited that support Calvinism but where are the verses that support the opposing view.

LT

[larryt]

My advice is test the T as hard as you can against God's word. if you take that down the whole thing goes

This is the foundation of Calvinism. If we are not totally depraved then the whole understanding crumbles. If it is true then the next point can be examined.

LT

[eric]

My advice is test the T as hard as you can against God's word. if you take that down the whole thing goes

This is the foundation of Calvinism. If we are not totally depraved then the whole understanding crumbles. If it is true then the next point can be examined.

LT

Good point Larry, first you have to define totally depraved., which is to me, anyway, is to be so wickardly evil, so grossly demonised, that you are beyond redemption, which is contrary to God's purpose to create man in the first place.

[eric]

As an after thought. Several passages of scripture have been presented as to how we were born with a sin nature, and I agree with them that it was through Adam. After saying that. I have assume that Adam was not totally depraved when he ate from the forbidden tree, he merely listened to satan's lie and thereby disobeyed God's command not to.

God created Adam with a normal brain if Adam was created in God's image. Not a totally depraved one, unless one accuses God of being totally depraved.

hope this is making sense.

[Eliyahuw]

Man could ONLY become depraved if there was no God. But since there is a God, he doesn't become depraved.

[EricH]

My advice is test the T as hard as you can against God's word. if you take that down the whole thing goes

This is the foundation of Calvinism. If we are not totally depraved then the whole understanding crumbles. If it is true then the next point can be examined.

LT

Good point Larry, first you have to define totally depraved., which is to me, anyway, is to be so wickardly evil, so grossly demonised, that you are beyond redemption, which is contrary to God's purpose to create man in the first place.

But that is not Total Depravity as defined by the bible and Calvin himself

[eric]

My advice is test the T as hard as you can against God's word. if you take that down the whole thing goes

This is the foundation of Calvinism. If we are not totally depraved then the whole understanding crumbles. If it is true then the next point can be examined.

LT

Good point Larry, first you have to define totally depraved., which is to me, anyway, is to be so wickardly evil, so grossly demonised, that you are beyond redemption, which is contrary to God's purpose to create man in the first place.

But that is not Total Depravity as defined by the bible and Calvin himself

Thank you EricH, so how is total depravity defined by the bible and Calvin himself