Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[Leonard]

I'm sorry, but I need to interrupt to address the topic at hand!

There are certainly types and shadows of Christ in paganism just as there are in the Old Testament. Consider that Jesus evidently rose from the dead on the VERY DAY of the heathen 'Feast of Ishtar.' This was a Spring festival, celebrating the new growth and fertility of the Spring. is it not singularly appropriate that the Son of God should resurrect in 'newness of life' right at that time?

The Scripture tells us that God has never been without a voice among any group of people. So we SHOULD expect to see prophetic type hints in other religions. I know a Minister in India who often leads Hindus to faith in Christ, from their own Vedic texts!

And to answer one of Kalou's questions arising from the quote from the Roman satirist Celsus: The real difference is that all the pagan myths were performed "A long time ago, in a galaxy far away," as it were, whereas the facts of Christianity were open to public scrutiny. Anybody who wanted to could actually go and VISIT Mary, the mother of Jesus up in the little hamlet of Nazareth up until about A.D. 63 or so. The Apostles claimed they were 'eye-witnesses' of the events, not poets writing about events thousands of years back! Ca. A.D. 62, we are told that 'the greater part' of the 'more than 500 witnesses' who saw Jesus carried into heaven at His glorious Ascension, were still living! THAT, my dear fellow, is how Christianity differs from the pagan myths. There is MUCH more information available than that, my dear fellow! Surely as a 'former Christian' you have studied these things out carefully. You must already know them, yes? No? Well then, my good Sir; you simply MUST read Josh MacDowell's EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT. Then you'll have a little more solid, scholarly information to go on.

[Guest yod]

oh, oh, oh!!! (raises hand in back of class)

I was an atheist who began studying hard to prove that christians were idiots. It isn't very hard to find flaws in humans of any stripe.

I learned all the "stuff" about paganism in the church (spent 4 obsessive months at the library) and eventually had to read the Bible because that was the supposed standard for christianity.

That is exactly how I became a believer.

After proving to myself that I couldn't find fault with the Bible, I asked God to prove Himself to me. He did so in a very dramatic way while I was driving down the highway...

If there are any embers of truth burning within your soul, k, why don't you ask God to reveal Himself? If you do this with a sincere heart, He will do that better than all the "debates" you can get into.

The trick is sincerity of heart...

[Spunky]

Lepeca sorry what freedom an atheist might

be giving them by turning them away from God!

If by chance atheists are right (which surely they are not)

then when you die that is it done you are dead and nothin

comes after. (sad thought)

So now someone believes them okay what freedom does

that someone get?

As a Christian all I would get is a never ending flow of tears

if I were to accept an atheist belief!

Life will have lost total meaning for me, making it pointless

to begin with. Might as well toss all my moral values out the

window since to an atheist Jesus was just a mere man. Why

listen to a mere man tell me to love one another, why listen

to any man made laws for that matter. not happenin!!!

I know Jesus is my Savior and one day I will walk beside Him

as will my children, all the hurt I have from this world will be

removed from me in His kingdom!

Go ahead atheist write all the books you want this is one

Christian you will not make stumble!

God Bless!

[EricH]

oh, oh, oh!!! (raises hand in back of class)

I was an atheist who began studying hard to prove that christians were idiots. It isn't very hard to find flaws in humans of any stripe.

I learned all the "stuff" about paganism in the church (spent 4 obsessive months at the library) and eventually had to read the Bible because that was the supposed standard for christianity.

That is exactly how I became a believer.

After proving to myself that I couldn't find fault with the Bible, I asked God to prove Himself to me. He did so in a very dramatic way while I was driving down the highway...

If there are any embers of truth burning within your soul, k, why don't you ask God to reveal Himself? If you do this with a sincere heart, He will do that better than all the "debates" you can get into.

The trick is sincerity of heart...

It is always amazing how God shows up in these types of situations.

[Floatingaxe]

You contradicted yourself.

Interestingly, the Hebrews never believed in a messiah like Jesus, never believed in a devil, never believed in hell, and certainly never believed in pagan stories of a God-Man that died for the sins of the world.

They still don't to this day."

and

The ideas of a devil or hell crept in after the Babylonian captivity which took the intellectuals, which included the priesthood, to Babylon where such things were believed in.

But the truth is that the devil was a part of the bible at the time of Moses since he wrote Genesis. The devil is in Genesis. As I recall that was a tad bit before the Babylonian exile.

The OT Jews believed in a promised Messiah. They were still looking for Him when Jesus arrived.

You should do a bit more studying.

I am not here to change your mind, only to insure that what you believe is accurate according to all that is known.

If you are determined to believe what you have written, then go ahead on. If you would like to know what Moses thought of what he wrote in genesis, then there is a lot of information that you may not have yet heard.

The thing is, if your faith is based on such things as Moses knowing about a devil, then your faith is in jeopardy. My own faith was based on such things, and I've since lost it. If you'd rather not lose your faith, then post no further.

k

You really don't know whereof your speak. You pretend to be wise with us who know God? I think not. You are a doubtmonger, and the Lord has something to say about the likes of those. Go peddle your doubt somewhere else, because you are far from being a seeker.

So, because I post what I've learned which you haven't, I'm not a seeker? Why haven't you ever heard of what the Jews have always believed and why?

How can you blaspheme truth in such a way? It doesn't bother you that I am merely looking for an answer to what I've learned, and yet you call me a pretender? If you have information against what I've said, then present it. If you don't, then don't accuse me of pretending to be wise. I assure you that I am not.

Admit it. You have never even heard of these things before. If you had, you would have an answer. All you have is accusations and an offering that I leave. I suppose Jesus should have said that to the tax collector? Well, He didn't. He loved the tax collector, which made all the difference.

I'm just going to have to assume that, either you have no explaination, and wish that I would just go away, or that you have based your faith on sand, and would rather not deal with me.

k

My faith is based on the living Saviour, Jsus Christ. What do you have to offer me? Nothing of value. What you have learned is false, as far as I can see. There is no blaspheming in me...but I do see it in your words. Be careful here, sir.

If you are truly a seeker, then ask some real questions. We are more than happy to share Christ with you.

[khalou]

You contradicted yourself.

Interestingly, the Hebrews never believed in a messiah like Jesus, never believed in a devil, never believed in hell, and certainly never believed in pagan stories of a God-Man that died for the sins of the world.

They still don't to this day."

and

The ideas of a devil or hell crept in after the Babylonian captivity which took the intellectuals, which included the priesthood, to Babylon where such things were believed in.

But the truth is that the devil was a part of the bible at the time of Moses since he wrote Genesis. The devil is in Genesis. As I recall that was a tad bit before the Babylonian exile.

The OT Jews believed in a promised Messiah. They were still looking for Him when Jesus arrived.

You should do a bit more studying.

I am not here to change your mind, only to insure that what you believe is accurate according to all that is known.

If you are determined to believe what you have written, then go ahead on. If you would like to know what Moses thought of what he wrote in genesis, then there is a lot of information that you may not have yet heard.

The thing is, if your faith is based on such things as Moses knowing about a devil, then your faith is in jeopardy. My own faith was based on such things, and I've since lost it. If you'd rather not lose your faith, then post no further.

k

You really don't know whereof your speak. You pretend to be wise with us who know God? I think not. You are a doubtmonger, and the Lord has something to say about the likes of those. Go peddle your doubt somewhere else, because you are far from being a seeker.

So, because I post what I've learned which you haven't, I'm not a seeker? Why haven't you ever heard of what the Jews have always believed and why?

How can you blaspheme truth in such a way? It doesn't bother you that I am merely looking for an answer to what I've learned, and yet you call me a pretender? If you have information against what I've said, then present it. If you don't, then don't accuse me of pretending to be wise. I assure you that I am not.

Admit it. You have never even heard of these things before. If you had, you would have an answer. All you have is accusations and an offering that I leave. I suppose Jesus should have said that to the tax collector? Well, He didn't. He loved the tax collector, which made all the difference.

I'm just going to have to assume that, either you have no explaination, and wish that I would just go away, or that you have based your faith on sand, and would rather not deal with me.

k

I usually do not enter anything in these kind of posts for they seem so contraversial and hateful. But I have to admit I do not see a whole lot of love being thrown around toward you and I want to extend my hand to you with the love of Christ for I know He loves you in every way and no matter what you say or do will ever change that. You say you were once a believer in Christ and you no longer believe, I seem to see in some of the things you write you still believe but you are actually trying not to. I am only saying that the little thing in you that is saying so much truth still lies in your heart and if you would just reach out to that truth it will prevail in your life. I do not know what has happened in your life that has made you decide to try and believe another way but I pray the Lord work in your heart to help you to reach to our God whom loves you very very much no matter what you say or do in Jesus' name!!

Thank you.

k

[khalou]

I'm sorry, but I need to interrupt to address the topic at hand!

There are certainly types and shadows of Christ in paganism just as there are in the Old Testament. Consider that Jesus evidently rose from the dead on the VERY DAY of the heathen 'Feast of Ishtar.' This was a Spring festival, celebrating the new growth and fertility of the Spring. is it not singularly appropriate that the Son of God should resurrect in 'newness of life' right at that time?

The Scripture tells us that God has never been without a voice among any group of people. So we SHOULD expect to see prophetic type hints in other religions. I know a Minister in India who often leads Hindus to faith in Christ, from their own Vedic texts!

And to answer one of Kalou's questions arising from the quote from the Roman satirist Celsus: The real difference is that all the pagan myths were performed "A long time ago, in a galaxy far away," as it were, whereas the facts of Christianity were open to public scrutiny. Anybody who wanted to could actually go and VISIT Mary, the mother of Jesus up in the little hamlet of Nazareth up until about A.D. 63 or so. The Apostles claimed they were 'eye-witnesses' of the events, not poets writing about events thousands of years back! Ca. A.D. 62, we are told that 'the greater part' of the 'more than 500 witnesses' who saw Jesus carried into heaven at His glorious Ascension, were still living! THAT, my dear fellow, is how Christianity differs from the pagan myths. There is MUCH more information available than that, my dear fellow! Surely as a 'former Christian' you have studied these things out carefully. You must already know them, yes? No? Well then, my good Sir; you simply MUST read Josh MacDowell's EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT. Then you'll have a little more solid, scholarly information to go on.

I could write that over 500 witnesses witnessed something, but if none of them write it down, then basically there are no other witnesses but me. You see, if what you say is true, then the church would have also said it in their defence. They chose to say that satan created copycat religions prior to Christ in order to fool people. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I'm just saying that there isn't any evidence that it happened except what's written in the gospels, which were written much later.

"Josh McDowell is merely an exercise in after-the-fact rationalization of beliefs held on prior emotional grounds."

*Absolutely no links to that site*******

This site requires a lot of reading that most probably won't do, and I don't blame them. But Josh is, at the very least, unconvincing.

k

[LightofJesus]

You contradicted yourself.

Interestingly, the Hebrews never believed in a messiah like Jesus, never believed in a devil, never believed in hell, and certainly never believed in pagan stories of a God-Man that died for the sins of the world.

They still don't to this day."

and

The ideas of a devil or hell crept in after the Babylonian captivity which took the intellectuals, which included the priesthood, to Babylon where such things were believed in.

But the truth is that the devil was a part of the bible at the time of Moses since he wrote Genesis. The devil is in Genesis. As I recall that was a tad bit before the Babylonian exile.

The OT Jews believed in a promised Messiah. They were still looking for Him when Jesus arrived.

You should do a bit more studying.

I am not here to change your mind, only to insure that what you believe is accurate according to all that is known.

If you are determined to believe what you have written, then go ahead on. If you would like to know what Moses thought of what he wrote in genesis, then there is a lot of information that you may not have yet heard.

The thing is, if your faith is based on such things as Moses knowing about a devil, then your faith is in jeopardy. My own faith was based on such things, and I've since lost it. If you'd rather not lose your faith, then post no further.

k

You really don't know whereof your speak. You pretend to be wise with us who know God? I think not. You are a doubtmonger, and the Lord has something to say about the likes of those. Go peddle your doubt somewhere else, because you are far from being a seeker.

So, because I post what I've learned which you haven't, I'm not a seeker? Why haven't you ever heard of what the Jews have always believed and why?

How can you blaspheme truth in such a way? It doesn't bother you that I am merely looking for an answer to what I've learned, and yet you call me a pretender? If you have information against what I've said, then present it. If you don't, then don't accuse me of pretending to be wise. I assure you that I am not.

Admit it. You have never even heard of these things before. If you had, you would have an answer. All you have is accusations and an offering that I leave. I suppose Jesus should have said that to the tax collector? Well, He didn't. He loved the tax collector, which made all the difference.

I'm just going to have to assume that, either you have no explaination, and wish that I would just go away, or that you have based your faith on sand, and would rather not deal with me.

k

I usually do not enter anything in these kind of posts for they seem so contraversial and hateful. But I have to admit I do not see a whole lot of love being thrown around toward you and I want to extend my hand to you with the love of Christ for I know He loves you in every way and no matter what you say or do will ever change that. You say you were once a believer in Christ and you no longer believe, I seem to see in some of the things you write you still believe but you are actually trying not to. I am only saying that the little thing in you that is saying so much truth still lies in your heart and if you would just reach out to that truth it will prevail in your life. I do not know what has happened in your life that has made you decide to try and believe another way but I pray the Lord work in your heart to help you to reach to our God whom loves you very very much no matter what you say or do in Jesus' name!!

Thank you.

k

You are eternally welcome

I will be praying for you!!

[ayin jade]

Accept the word of man over the word of God? No thanks Khalou.

Linking to sites that oppose Christianity isnt allowed here either.

[khalou]

but the question remains- why would God want to make it so difficult to believe the truth? Is faith in God such an important thing that normally sensible people must ignore what a ten year old would see as ridiculous is fact in order to maintain their faith? Why would a God set it up that way?

Jesus addresses this issue.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?

Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.

Mat 13:12 For whoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance. But whoever does not have, from him shall be taken away even that which he has.

Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand.

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, "By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive;

Mat 13:15 for this people's heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.

Mat 13:17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear what you hear, and have not heard them.

As in every other of the Mystery religions of the time, there were stories for the masses, and an inner circle that was privy to the deeper truths of those stories.

But I was speaking about other things-

How is it that Mark's Jesus predicts the times of the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem with incredible accuracy, but then goes on to predict His return "within this generation"? Could it be because Mark had already seen the times of the destruction, and believed that Jesus would return so soon?

Another thing- Mark speaks about the Pharisees noticing that some of the Disciples were eating with unclean hands- not having washed. Interestingly, during Jesus' time, only the Priests practiced this custom, but after the destruction of the Temple, the hand-washing custom was prevalent among all. Mark obviously wasn't aware of how things were during the time of Christ. The list of inconsistencies goes on and on. Why would God want so many mistakes like this in His Bible?

The Pharisees is the most interesting aspect of all. The Pharisees were the "party of the people". They would have taken a "wait and see" stance on any messianic claimant, and wouldn't care much about their place in society. It was the Sadducees that were given authority by Rome and would have been jumpy about such a claimant because, remember, the only messiah that was understood by the people was that of an earthly king that would conquer Rome and the earth. Under the Roman authority, the Pharisees would have to have kept a low profile. If the gospels were written to appease a Roman conquerer, as is likely, then the Pharisees as the bad guys would be more appropriate, but historically, it doesn't make sense.

k