Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Openly Curious]

oc--Okay, under the assumption Anninias and Sapphira was Christians their punishment for lying to the Holy Ghost was immediately being transported to being with the Lord for all eternity as they were rewarded for their sins which doesn't make a lot of sense to me being rewarded for evil.

Ovedya

That would depend on your understanding of what happens to the believer upon their death. I personally don't believe that believers get "immediately transported to heaven" when they die. Of course, the human spirit returns to the Lord, but it is not the conscious part of our being. The reward given to the kingdom people is after the resurrection, when the wedding feast of the Lamb takes place. There is a dispensational punishment to disobedient believers, which is exclusion from that feast.

oc--So what you are telling me then is I can be a disobedient believer and my only dispensational punishment would be to get excluded from the wedding feast. I can be lukewarm and still my only punishment would be to be excluded from the wedding feast. Would like to see scriptures on that doctrine of yours. Seems only a small price to pay on a believers part and in my own mind and heart for being disobedient after all I still would be "saved" right.

OC

[kat8585]

Some OSAS proponents argue that a saved person can live no differently than the world and still be saved, even if they die in their sins.

This is a common fallacy. It's never been proven that a single orthodox group teaches this kind of thing.

Well, my daughter believes this. She goes to a non-denominational church.

[eric]

Well I have no desire to get involved in this thread,because I have made my view many times previously, but I will say this.....I think along the same lines as Butero, without requoting his last two posts on the matter......thanks Butero......nice one.

[Guest lnj]

I'll stick with the Bible thanks...Man is fallable, Gods Word ISN'T. For those who think you CAN'T lose your Salvation, you are in denial.

[Floatingaxe]

In Matthew 12 v 31,32

The Pharisees slandered the Holy Spirit by KNOWLEDGEABLY attributing His work to the devil, thus committing the unpardonable sin. Their sin was not an act of IMPULSE OR IGNORANCE but the result of a CONTINUED and WILLFUL REJECTION of the TRUTH concerning Jesus. It was sin against Spiritual knowledge, for they had ample EVIDENCE of the TRUTH from the WORDS and DEEDS of Jesus. In delberatley CHOOSING to insult the Holy Spirit, they forfeited His ministry in their lives and WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN.

This is the notes from the NKJV talking about the Pharisees.

My own words:

This attitude exists AMONG Believers to this day, the branches that DO NOT bear fruit will be REJECTED and tossed into the everlasting fire. Continued sin by believers will harden their hearts and they WILL lose their Salvation if they draw away from the midst of God. You cannot be connected to the Vine displaying repeated acts of sin. You do not have the Holy Spirit within you if that's the case.

[Guest Daave]

I can see there has been a lot of exchanges since I was last here. First of all, I use a 1611 King James Bible as Tom does, but when I type scriptures at Worthy, I either modify the spelling so it will be easier to read, or type it out of the Authorized version. I don't trust any of the modern translations for many differen't reasons.

Even though I agree that the King James Version is the best translation, I agree doctrinally with Floatingaxe and O.C. The doctrine of unconditional eternal security is wrong. I noticed that Ovedya said a couple of interesting things. In one case, while he claims his view is not the same as the Catholic one of a pergatory, there is not much difference. He believes that those who are lukewarm and spewed out, will suffer a dispensational punishment. I have never seen that taught in the Bible, and it is in principle the same as pergatory, a temporary punsihment for those who are not outright sinners, but are Christians that have not lived a completely pious lifestyle. I also noticed he is also holding to something similar to the 7th Day Adventist doctrine of soul sleep. He says the spirit goes to be with the Lord, but seems to hold to the idea it is in an unconscious state. This doesn't make sense, in light of the fact that Jesus met with Moses and Elijah at the Mount of Transfiguration. Elijah had not known physical death, but Moses had, and was anything but unconscious.

If someone is a Christian and they commit a wilful sin, if they don't confess that sin and die, they will go to hell. There is a difference in a sin done in ignorance, and one that is wilful. Ovedya gave us an example of both in one. He described a man that lived faithfully for Christ 60 years. He then saw a woman and began to lust. The lust could be something completely unplanned, so if he died at that moment, his sin was still under the blood. Once such a sin comes to our attention, provided we don't die on the spot, we are to confess it. In Ovedya's example, the man doesn't take the thought captive and repent, but decides to commit adultery with the woman. In the act, he has a heart attack and dies. This was a pre-meditated sin, and is not covered by the blood. As such, he forfeited eternal life, and went to hell. I gave scripture to back this up, and will go back and re-post it for the benefit of those who didn't already read it.

I am not a OSAS proponant, there are simply to many warnings in the Word of God. If there was no danger of commiting spiritual suicide, the warnings wouldn't be there.

Neither do I find support for "one unconfessed sin and you go to hell." Let's read the rest of that section in Hebrews that you are quoting Butero.

26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This is not just some sin that we decided to do, this is "The Sin" of counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing.

30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

33. Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

34. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Just listen to what is being said..."the sin" being referred to is that of purposefully leaving Christ, not neglecting to confess a sin.

Brother Daave

[Guest Daave]

In Matthew 12 v 31,32

The Pharisees slandered the Holy Spirit by KNOWLEDGEABLY attributing His work to the devil, thus committing the unpardonable sin. Their sin was not an act of IMPULSE OR IGNORANCE but the result of a CONTINUED and WILLFUL REJECTION of the TRUTH concerning Jesus. It was sin against Spiritual knowledge, for they had ample EVIDENCE of the TRUTH from the WORDS and DEEDS of Jesus. In delberatley CHOOSING to insult the Holy Spirit, they forfeited His ministry in their lives and WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN.

This is the notes from the NKJV talking about the Pharisees.

My own words:

This attitude exists AMONG Believers to this day, the branches that DO NOT bear fruit will be REJECTED and tossed into the everlasting fire. Continued sin by believers will harden their hearts and they WILL lose their Salvation if they draw away from the midst of God. You cannot be connected to the Vine displaying repeated acts of sin. You do not have the Holy Spirit within you if that's the case.

The simplest reading of the scriptures bears out the fact that every one that encounters Jesus Christ in truth, their life is changed. No Change--No Salvation--It's as simple as that.

Daave

[dgolvach]

OK ...here we go. Let anyone amongst us who dosen't have sin in his or her life to some degree step forward. Tell me that you have zero areas that you frequently fall short in.

Anyone wan't to step up?

Are you clean in every area of your life?

Go you think fender bender sins wont qualify you for hell?

[Openly Curious]

I can see there has been a lot of exchanges since I was last here. First of all, I use a 1611 King James Bible as Tom does, but when I type scriptures at Worthy, I either modify the spelling so it will be easier to read, or type it out of the Authorized version. I don't trust any of the modern translations for many differen't reasons.

Even though I agree that the King James Version is the best translation, I agree doctrinally with Floatingaxe and O.C. The doctrine of unconditional eternal security is wrong. I noticed that Ovedya said a couple of interesting things. In one case, while he claims his view is not the same as the Catholic one of a pergatory, there is not much difference. He believes that those who are lukewarm and spewed out, will suffer a dispensational punishment. I have never seen that taught in the Bible, and it is in principle the same as pergatory, a temporary punsihment for those who are not outright sinners, but are Christians that have not lived a completely pious lifestyle. I also noticed he is also holding to something similar to the 7th Day Adventist doctrine of soul sleep. He says the spirit goes to be with the Lord, but seems to hold to the idea it is in an unconscious state. This doesn't make sense, in light of the fact that Jesus met with Moses and Elijah at the Mount of Transfiguration. Elijah had not known physical death, but Moses had, and was anything but unconscious.

If someone is a Christian and they commit a wilful sin, if they don't confess that sin and die, they will go to hell. There is a difference in a sin done in ignorance, and one that is wilful. Ovedya gave us an example of both in one. He described a man that lived faithfully for Christ 60 years. He then saw a woman and began to lust. The lust could be something completely unplanned, so if he died at that moment, his sin was still under the blood. Once such a sin comes to our attention, provided we don't die on the spot, we are to confess it. In Ovedya's example, the man doesn't take the thought captive and repent, but decides to commit adultery with the woman. In the act, he has a heart attack and dies. This was a pre-meditated sin, and is not covered by the blood. As such, he forfeited eternal life, and went to hell. I gave scripture to back this up, and will go back and re-post it for the benefit of those who didn't already read it.

I am not a OSAS proponant, there are simply to many warnings in the Word of God. If there was no danger of commiting spiritual suicide, the warnings wouldn't be there.

Neither do I find support for "one unconfessed sin and you go to hell." Let's read the rest of that section in Hebrews that you are quoting Butero.

26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This is not just some sin that we decided to do, this is "The Sin" of counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing.

30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

33. Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

34. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Just listen to what is being said..."the sin" being referred to is that of purposefully leaving Christ, not neglecting to confess a sin.

Brother Daave

Great points

OC

[dgolvach]

everytime this subject comes up I ask the same questions as I did on the last post of the previous page of this thread,

No one ever steps up?

Dan