Unbelievers - You're dead and before God on Judgement Day

[Ovedya]

I believe out of love.

[billie]

I believe because I've had personal experiences with the Lord that were as real to me as me typing this.

For me to deny God, it would take me denying everything my senses told me otherwise.

[Smalcald]

What I mean is that we do have horrible death and destruction that we have created on this earth, the millions of babies that have died the wars that have killed so many innocents, on and on. Without God, those people are dead and in hell, for hell are but the grave, eternal doom, the blackness of darkness forever.

If there is an earthquake, it is not anyone's fault. Nobody made the earthquake happen.

During the earthquake, a building collapses and a 6 month old baby is trapped and takes a day to die. In pain and agony. Broken bones. Starvation. Thirst.

The baby is innocent. God could have done so many things. he could have had the baby's mother take it for a walk. He could have had a beam fall strategically, forming a barrier to protect the baby till the rescuers came.

It's a hypothetical baby, but something like it has happened. In differing ways, in differing circumstances.

The point is that there is needless suffering of innocents. Caused by no-one. And not prevented by the omniscient, omnipotent God.

And. If ever I am before him. I will want him to explain it to me before he condemns me.

But don't you see Stewart, without God, that baby IS indeed in the death of hell, gone forever. With God, the baby has life, eternal life even with that earthquake. This earth today is only a tiny percentage of our life, and yes it does contain some suffering. But most of our life, the vast vast expanse of our time will not be spent on this earth, and neither will that baby, who is now with Christ.

This makes no sense to me. The baby couldn't have accepted Christ, and so it would go to Hell. At the very least, there was no reason to make it feel pain before it died; one swift blow to the head would've been kinder than agony.

But back to the point about Hell. Christians have said to me that babies don't go to hell, because the Bible says that God excercises judgement on who goes where, because he is Just. But the Bible also states that the only way into Heaven is by accepting Christ. This means one of two things: either the judgement verse is meant generally only, so babies and other innocents go to hell, or it is possible that God might excercise a similar judgement on behalf of an adult non-Christian and let them into Heaven, which means it's a lie that the only way to Heaven is by accepting Christ. Come to think of it, that verse is still a lie if he lets babies into Heaven. The point being, that's one whopping contradiction to me. Either God is cruel (and therefore unJust) and lets innocents burn in hell for eternity, or the Bible contradicts itself. I can't see any way around that.

Stew, have you ever read the Book of Job?

I've always found the Book of Job pretty terrible. There's just no good reason for why God torments him so - the man was devout. God should have had no need to prove himself to Satan, nor should he have needed to torment Job in order to find out whether he was truly pious if he actually was omnipotent. On top of that, this is essentially God killing innocents - Job's family - to prove a point to the devil. How is that either Just or Merciful?

Hi Secondeve.

ahh I think you are talking about the minority of Christians who believe that you must have some sort of born again experience and "accept" Christ etc by some sort of action on our part which says we are good and those who don't "accept" Christ are bad.

Most Christians in history and in the world today, in the Eastern Church, Roman Catholics, Lutheran's, etc believe that we are saved by Christ, not by some sort of decision we make. Christ creates our faith Himself working through the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in scripture about babies going to hell; there is also evidence that all human beings will have an equal chance to be part of the grace Christ offer's for free. Now there is hell and some people will actively choose to reject the free gift of the grace of Christ, I don't know how this could be, but I think it is true. We see some people who for just pride reasons would refuse to believe in Christ if He stood right in front of them. Don't form your view of the Christian faith on only one set of Evangelical Christians living in the US.

Now the atheist says that none of that matters you are all going to hell, we are all going to hell and the entire existence we live in is essentially meaningless. Because we know that this physical world is dying, we know that the sun will explode at some point, we know that physical death without Christ is eternal. Hell is often portrayed in scripture as simply eternal death, nothingness forever. Compared to living and loving in eternity, of course this is hell. My point is in all of those instances of injustice and innocents dying, without Christ then yes it really is horrible.

I never said it was comfortabe. As an atheists, it sometimes bothers me that there is no "life after death", it bothers me as much as any Christian. But I can't deceive myself and make myself believe something just because I'm scared.

This is a classic appeal to emotion. Believing what one wants to believe rather than what's true for the sake of comfort.

What I was responding to was the idea that the Christian view was the cruel view. Now it may be myopic, but it is not the cruel view. Life without Christ is much more cruel and heartless than life with Christ.

Do we believe because we are scared? Good question. I am not averse to admitting I have some fear of my own judgment even with a knowledge that Christ has atoned for my individual sins. But death without an after life is not that scary, it is simply depressing. But emotions are not a bad thing or somehow less than intelligence. Thus there is nothing wrong with appeals to our emotions. They are human indicators of our deepest needs. Intelligence is simply processing power; it does nothing for wisdom, meaning or beauty. Some of the worst people in history have been highly intelligent, as have some of the best people; it is value neutral, like being tall or short.

Of course you can't know that there is no life after death, in that you don't understand the depth of our existence, we can't even reconcile very basic things in physics for example. How do you know you won't exist in a different dimension or different space time continuum? Maybe that is where the Christian concept of heaven comes from. Lewis called these "good dreams", a pre-knowledge of heaven and beauty that simply does not exist on this earth. Yet how could that be, unless it were true.

But the basic problem for both of us in apologetics is that Christians, including myself believe that faith is not created by ourselves. We believe that knowledge of God and the Word of God is given from God alone, that the Holy Spirit a literal Spirit being calls out to the believer and actually possesses that person. It is knowledge based on revelation and experience. Much like a Buddhist trying to explain a Koan, what it feels like, to someone who does not meditate they can walk around it, maybe excite some interest, but they can

[Ovedya]

If 2+2=4, a "deep emotional need" for it to equal 5 won't make it so. And I don't know that I won't end up here or there, it's all very interesting. I just lack belief in any preconceived notion or superstition of how the universe operates.

Then it would take the power of the universe to blow you out of your own concepts of how the universe operates, I would suspect.

[ayin jade]

Jesus preached about hell too.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Mt

[secondeve]

Hi Secondeve.

ahh I think you are talking about the minority of Christians who believe that you must have some sort of born again experience and "accept" Christ etc by some sort of action on our part which says we are good and those who don't "accept" Christ are bad. Most Christians in history and in the world today, in the Eastern Church, Roman Catholics, Lutheran's, etc believe that we are saved by Christ, not by some sort of decision we make. Christ creates our faith Himself working through the Holy Spirit.

You'll have to clarify this for me. I thought the whole idea was that the only way to Salvation was by the Blood of the Lamb, i.e, Jesus died for our sins, but if we rejected him - if we didn't believe or if we turned our backs - then that was the unforgiveable sin that led us to death. Which is what I was talking about - not actions on behalf of the baby, but the fact that they were at that age intellectually incapable of choosing to accept Christ. If the whole reason we have free will is so we can actively choose God, and if this is what is required for our redemption, then I don't see how a small, uncomprehending child could be saved.

There is nothing in scripture about babies going to hell; there is also evidence that all human beings will have an equal chance to be part of the grace Christ offer's for free.

But isn't that what the world is - the opportunity to choose? If we reject it here, or don't choose it here, or believe it here, then doesn't that equate to going to hell? If what you say is true, then doesn't that mean the Bible is incorrect when it says that the only means to salvation is by accepting Christ in your heart?

Now there is hell and some people will actively choose to reject the free gift of the grace of Christ, I don't know how this could be, but I think it is true. We see some people who for just pride reasons would refuse to believe in Christ if He stood right in front of them. Don't form your view of the Christian faith on only one set of Evangelical Christians living in the US.

I still don't understand. You make it sound as though the reality and existence of Christ was apparent to all, so that believing otherwise was an active choice, as in, I can see this is real but choose to disbelieve it. I'm looking at it differently: there isn't a choice, because I can't choose between something real and something else which isn't. The world is real; I don't choose hell because I don't believe it exists, anymore than I'd choose heaven for same reason - it doesn't exist.

Now the atheist says that none of that matters you are all going to hell, we are all going to hell and the entire existence we live in is essentially meaningless.

Utterly untrue. I'll address this in a different thread if you want more detail, but essentially, although Christians cannot comprehend how life could have meaning without God, this does not mean that athiests see things the same way.

Because we know that this physical world is dying, we know that the sun will explode at some point, we know that physical death without Christ is eternal. Hell is often portrayed in scripture as simply eternal death, nothingness forever. Compared to living and loving in eternity, of course this is hell. My point is in all of those instances of injustice and innocents dying, without Christ then yes it really is horrible.

You're saying the world is hell? I don't think that every Christian would agree with you on that.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Then what are we repenting of hr?

Yes, we are to Preach te Gospel. The Gospel is the Loving Kindness of the Lord. His Outrageous Grace and Mercy in Saving us from hell.

The Gospel of our Lords Grace is that He descended from heaven and took on our fleshly nature. Ruling over it, all of hell, and death. By conqueroring it at the Ressurection after having died our death.

The wages of sin is death. Sin leads to seperation from God. Seperation from God eternally is hell. You, I ,and our atheist friends weren't made for hell. Although by joining the Rebellion we have chosen to go there.

To Preach the Gospel is to preach the whole Truth. That Jesus Christ paid the price for our release from where we rightly deserve to go for our rebellion against God.

Do you know another Gospel?

The life of a thing is in the Blood. The Bible says that without the shedding of Blood there is no forgiveness of sin.

When we accept Jesus Christ and His Gospel. We accept His Blood and His life in substitution of our own which is not sufficient to Save us.

How do we accept that this is fact? By Faith.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

It is God who enables us to hear the message. Through the preaching of His Word. However we are still left with whether or not we will receive it.

Haven't you heard?

Am

[Smalcald]

Hi Secondeve.

ahh I think you are talking about the minority of Christians who believe that you must have some sort of born again experience and "accept" Christ etc by some sort of action on our part which says we are good and those who don't "accept" Christ are bad. Most Christians in history and in the world today, in the Eastern Church, Roman Catholics, Lutheran's, etc believe that we are saved by Christ, not by some sort of decision we make. Christ creates our faith Himself working through the Holy Spirit.

You'll have to clarify this for me. I thought the whole idea was that the only way to Salvation was by the Blood of the Lamb, i.e, Jesus died for our sins, but if we rejected him - if we didn't believe or if we turned our backs - then that was the unforgiveable sin that led us to death. Which is what I was talking about - not actions on behalf of the baby, but the fact that they were at that age intellectually incapable of choosing to accept Christ. If the whole reason we have free will is so we can actively choose God, and if this is what is required for our redemption, then I don't see how a small, uncomprehending child could be saved.

There is nothing in scripture about babies going to hell; there is also evidence that all human beings will have an equal chance to be part of the grace Christ offer's for free.

But isn't that what the world is - the opportunity to choose? If we reject it here, or don't choose it here, or believe it here, then doesn't that equate to going to hell? If what you say is true, then doesn't that mean the Bible is incorrect when it says that the only means to salvation is by accepting Christ in your heart?

Now there is hell and some people will actively choose to reject the free gift of the grace of Christ, I don't know how this could be, but I think it is true. We see some people who for just pride reasons would refuse to believe in Christ if He stood right in front of them. Don't form your view of the Christian faith on only one set of Evangelical Christians living in the US.

I still don't understand. You make it sound as though the reality and existence of Christ was apparent to all, so that believing otherwise was an active choice, as in, I can see this is real but choose to disbelieve it. I'm looking at it differently: there isn't a choice, because I can't choose between something real and something else which isn't. The world is real; I don't choose hell because I don't believe it exists, anymore than I'd choose heaven for same reason - it doesn't exist.

Now the atheist says that none of that matters you are all going to hell, we are all going to hell and the entire existence we live in is essentially meaningless.

Utterly untrue. I'll address this in a different thread if you want more detail, but essentially, although Christians cannot comprehend how life could have meaning without God, this does not mean that athiests see things the same way.

Because we know that this physical world is dying, we know that the sun will explode at some point, we know that physical death without Christ is eternal. Hell is often portrayed in scripture as simply eternal death, nothingness forever. Compared to living and loving in eternity, of course this is hell. My point is in all of those instances of injustice and innocents dying, without Christ then yes it really is horrible.

You're saying the world is hell? I don't think that every Christian would agree with you on that.

Hi Secondeve

Let me try to address some things, but there is little disagreement on some of this within Christianity, I will just give you what the tradition that I follow essentially believes.

As far as a choice goes, the bible says that all humans are equally condemned, no one better than the other, that all fall short and are dead in trespasses. Our faith if we have it, is not something that we could create through making a good choice, Christ did all of the work for us, all we have the power to do is push the Holy Spirit away, we don't have the power to create faith by ourselves. Thus we would believe that we all will have an exactly equal choice to walk away or not. Only a small percentage of western Christians buy into this whole age of accountability stuff, it is not found directly in scripture.

If we look at the conversions in scripture, take Paul for example, he made no "choice" to have faith. Christ came down and smacked him blind, the only choice he had was to obey or to resist. In scripture there rarely is this period of "making a decision for Christ", no in scripture Christ comes, people either walk away or they obey. Take Thomas, a great evangelist, he didn't believe until he could literally push his fingers in the wounds of the Risen Christ. So at that point he said yes I will follow. Obviously babies can't walk away; in fact I have never met a small child who didn't have a natural faith in God. Faith is not some sort of intellectual choice; it is a transformation of the Holy Spirit that for some people, like John the Baptist, happens prior to birth, happens in the womb. This is about God, not about us, I think that is the point, and that is tremendously comforting at least to me.

We can truly rest in Christ; I honestly think you have not experience the whole Christian view and should take a look beyond some of the pop culture Christianity on TV we have here.

Death is indeed one vision of hell. Eternal death, Hades is often portrayed in scripture as simply the blackness of death. We know that this physical world is dying all scientists will tell you this. It is hellish in the sense. Now I think you can find some meaning, but essentially if you don't believe the world has meaning outside of the physical, the material, the random biological responses and survival, it is not much of a meaning. If we deny the Spirit, we deny many things. Every relationship you have had, every love you have had, everything you have created will be utterly destroyed and forgotten when the sun collapses, which we know will happen, and has no meaning whatsoever it there is no spirit world, how could it? Now I do believe that many atheists are moral people leading meaningful lives, I just don

[Joshua-777]

I'd be in awe, amazed at the glory of Christ, I think I'd be on my knees and bow before his presence, I'm not sure what I would do.