Unbelievers - You're dead and before God on Judgement Day

[secondeve]

Hi Secondeve

Let me try to address some things, but there is little disagreement on some of this within Christianity, I will just give you what the tradition that I follow essentially believes.

As far as a choice goes, the bible says that all humans are equally condemned, no one better than the other, that all fall short and are dead in trespasses. Our faith if we have it, is not something that we could create through making a good choice, Christ did all of the work for us, all we have the power to do is push the Holy Spirit away, we don't have the power to create faith by ourselves. Thus we would believe that we all will have an exactly equal choice to walk away or not. Only a small percentage of western Christians buy into this whole age of accountability stuff, it is not found directly in scripture.

If we look at the conversions in scripture, take Paul for example, he made no "choice" to have faith. Christ came down and smacked him blind, the only choice he had was to obey or to resist. In scripture there rarely is this period of "making a decision for Christ", no in scripture Christ comes, people either walk away or they obey. Take Thomas, a great evangelist, he didn't believe until he could literally push his fingers in the wounds of the Risen Christ. So at that point he said yes I will follow. Obviously babies can't walk away; in fact I have never met a small child who didn't have a natural faith in God. Faith is not some sort of intellectual choice; it is a transformation of the Holy Spirit that for some people, like John the Baptist, happens prior to birth, happens in the womb. This is about God, not about us, I think that is the point, and that is tremendously comforting at least to me.

We can truly rest in Christ; I honestly think you have not experience the whole Christian view and should take a look beyond some of the pop culture Christianity on TV we have here.

Thank you for such a thoughtful response. This seems a much kinder and more loving form of Christianity than what I have often encountered. Knowing that this is where you are coming from, your points make more sense to me; however, I do know that other Christians, however few they may be, believe otherwise. This is neither here nor there to your case - I only mention it again to explain my initial skepticism.

Death is indeed one vision of hell. Eternal death, Hades is often portrayed in scripture as simply the blackness of death. We know that this physical world is dying all scientists will tell you this. It is hellish in the sense. Now I think you can find some meaning, but essentially if you don't believe the world has meaning outside of the physical, the material, the random biological responses and survival, it is not much of a meaning. If we deny the Spirit, we deny many things. Every relationship you have had, every love you have had, everything you have created will be utterly destroyed and forgotten when the sun collapses, which we know will happen, and has no meaning whatsoever it there is no spirit world, how could it? Now I do believe that many atheists are moral people leading meaningful lives, I just don

Edited November 2, 2006 by secondeve

[Smalcald]

Hi Secondeve

Let me try to address some things, but there is little disagreement on some of this within Christianity, I will just give you what the tradition that I follow essentially believes.

As far as a choice goes, the bible says that all humans are equally condemned, no one better than the other, that all fall short and are dead in trespasses. Our faith if we have it, is not something that we could create through making a good choice, Christ did all of the work for us, all we have the power to do is push the Holy Spirit away, we don't have the power to create faith by ourselves. Thus we would believe that we all will have an exactly equal choice to walk away or not. Only a small percentage of western Christians buy into this whole age of accountability stuff, it is not found directly in scripture.

If we look at the conversions in scripture, take Paul for example, he made no "choice" to have faith. Christ came down and smacked him blind, the only choice he had was to obey or to resist. In scripture there rarely is this period of "making a decision for Christ", no in scripture Christ comes, people either walk away or they obey. Take Thomas, a great evangelist, he didn't believe until he could literally push his fingers in the wounds of the Risen Christ. So at that point he said yes I will follow. Obviously babies can't walk away; in fact I have never met a small child who didn't have a natural faith in God. Faith is not some sort of intellectual choice; it is a transformation of the Holy Spirit that for some people, like John the Baptist, happens prior to birth, happens in the womb. This is about God, not about us, I think that is the point, and that is tremendously comforting at least to me.

We can truly rest in Christ; I honestly think you have not experience the whole Christian view and should take a look beyond some of the pop culture Christianity on TV we have here.

Thank you for such a thoughtful response. This seems a much kinder and more loving form of Christianity than what I have often encountered. Knowing that this is where you are coming from, your points make more sense to me; however, I do know that other Christians, however few they may be, believe otherwise. This is neither here nor there to your case - I only mention it again to explain my initial skepticism.

Death is indeed one vision of hell. Eternal death, Hades is often portrayed in scripture as simply the blackness of death. We know that this physical world is dying all scientists will tell you this. It is hellish in the sense. Now I think you can find some meaning, but essentially if you don't believe the world has meaning outside of the physical, the material, the random biological responses and survival, it is not much of a meaning. If we deny the Spirit, we deny many things. Every relationship you have had, every love you have had, everything you have created will be utterly destroyed and forgotten when the sun collapses, which we know will happen, and has no meaning whatsoever it there is no spirit world, how could it? Now I do believe that many atheists are moral people leading meaningful lives, I just don

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

hr,

I do not think we are all that apart in our views. I agree preaching damnation isn't going to accomplish anything in and of itself.

However the Gospel is incomplete without it. Why? You have said that we are to Preach the Good news and I agree. However the fact that there is indeed Good News to Preach means that there is necessarily some bad news.

Let's examine the Gospel according to John a little bit;

Joh

[secondeve]

Well I hope you keep an open mind. I think the very things you mention though, beauty, our desire for meaning, living etc; I think these are evidence that there is something numinous, something more. The great "other", I think we have all felt it. I believe that something more is Christ. Obviously I can't force this on you, but I honestly believe that love is eternal. But in the end, the reason I believe is because of faith created by the Holy Spirit and strengthened by the Gospel. All I can suggest is a read of Matthew with an open mind, it would say more than I could ever say. Sometimes I think we stand in the way of Christ more than we do in spreading His Word.

I try to keep an open mind. I just can't imagine that a single book written in an archaic human language could somehow be big enough to convey the entirety of the universe; I cannot comprehend that the history of dead kings might go some way to explaining the Horsehead Nebula. I know what you're talking about when you mention the great "other," but even though we might know (or think we know) that something bigger than us is out there, I can't believe that anyone alive today could claim truthfully to know exactly what it is, let alone someone two thousand years ago. This isn't to say that nobody has ever got it right; I just don't see how they could claim to prove it. I tend to look at it like this. If there is something or someone out there, then what they are is so massive that it seems doubtful, given the multiplicity of religions on this planet, that we have ever got it right; or if we had, there'd be no way of telling for certain. If there isn't, then what we feel is something unique and beautiful and complex, a consequence of our sentience in an ever-increasing world. Either way, I just don't believe that I could claim to know the truth definitively. Instead, a write what I write and think what I think, and I do my best as the world keeps turning. What more can any of us do?

There's a great line in the Maxims of Balloo from the Jungle Book, a story which has always touched me deeply. It goes like this:

'There is none like to I!' says the Cub

In the pride of his earliest kill

But the jungle is large and the Cub, he is small.

Let him think, and be still.

[Floatingaxe]

What would you say or do before the Supreme Judge who holds you accountable to His holy standards? Hypothetically?

Don't you think it would be kinda petty for the creator of the universe to comdemn someone for not believing because of the lack of evidence?Secondly if he really exists and he really is a loving God he is just going to say ah shucks , lets be friends.

Didn't you ever ask yourselves just WHY is it so important to just

"believe"? I mean where is the substance in that? If a person lives a moral life and unintentionally mimics the life of Jesus yet doesn't believe do you really think he is going to hell because he doesn't "believe"? I would hope the creator of the universe if there is one is above the petty emotional hangups of humans like demanding worship , and professed belief or he will stomp and shout.

Demand worship? HE DESERVES WORSHIP! Why in the world would a holy God have anything to do with unholiness?? It is through His provision for holiness, His Son Jesus, who died a tortuous death, that we can enter into His holiness! He is a good, good God---that He cares that much for filthy, sinful men!

[billie]

What about that seems like a bad parent?

The part where he cares for those who curse Him, or the part where He refrains from forcing people who hate Him to go to a place after death where they'll be forced to worship Him for Eternity?

[undone]

I have not read them. One of the articles is over 50 pages. The reason I am still awake is the chemistry exam that awaits me tomorrow morning.

RH, How did the chem exam go?

[Floatingaxe]

He cares that much for filthy, sinful men!

As he should; he created us after all, in all our (potential) dirtiness and sin. And, whether or not he deserves worship, he expresses a desire for it--by eternally punishing those who don't. Seems like a bad parent to me. Well, certainly not a perfect one.

The punishment aspect is all you see! Take off those blinders, man. God is HOLY and cannot be in the presence of sin. EVER. Man was created holy, but we botched it because of your friend, the devil. So God made a way for us to beat that rap---JESUS! Accept that now, and be saved!

[ayin jade]

There's a great line in the Maxims of Balloo from the Jungle Book, a story which has always touched me deeply. It goes like this:

'There is none like to I!' says the Cub

In the pride of his earliest kill

But the jungle is large and the Cub, he is small.

Let him think, and be still.

Are you a Kipling fan? Or just a fan of the Jungle Books?

[undone]

I would encourage all of you to read Christian Theodicy in Light of Genesis and Modern Science.

Well, I just made it through the 50+ pages of this essay and I say it's well worth the time.

Has anybody else read it?

I'll get the next one tomorrow.