mortal or immortal soul ?

[Openly Curious]

My ' idealism ' as you call it is based on the scriptures I mentioned and the ' living soul ' was first mentioned in Gen.2 v 7 , What is your problem with that ?

You then go on to the living souls in Rev.16 v 3 when scripture says every living soul died. Since we are discussing the mortality of the soul I can not see the relevance as to who those souls were. Fact is they died and that is the point of this debate , not to establish their identity. If you think that is important please explain.

Beta,

I don't have a problem with Genesis 2:7 at all. For Adam did become a "living soul" when God breathed into him the breath of life. Which shows us that the body is seperate from the life that was put into it by God himself. The word also teaches us that the life of the flesh is in the blood. And when we breath in and out our bodies takes in air and it is turned into oxygen in our blood streams without the breath of air going in and our our bodies will not function anymore. The moment God breathed into Adam's body he became a "living" human being a "soul" It is the life given by God that makes us 'living soul" a personality in our body with a "will" to live and cling onto that breath of life from God and survive.

you say however that the body and soul are the same thing that they are "one" do you not?

Seeing then that we are discussing the mortality of the soul then the relevance of the living souls that are mentioned in Revelation 16:3 is most relevant because they died making them important to the debate. But not only that they died but who these "living souls" are is also important to the debate in who you think they are in identity. Regarding your idealism (thinking) towards the "living soul"

So who are these in Revelation 16:3 and where did their "living souls" end up after death?

OC

[Openly Curious]

Beta's take on immortality & the existence of a real biblical lake of fire reads like something out of Charles Taze Russell's (or Ellen Gould Harmon White's for that matter) "play-book." We are mortal & Paul says we shall "put on immortality" when we see Jesus. In the meantime, the Holy Scriptures are abundantly clear that at death we enter the very Presence of Christ, Who is far from "annihilated" - "To live is Christ, to die is GAIN" & such stated "GAIN" cannot refer to, by the very nature of the word, the cultist view of "annihilationism" or "soul-sleep," which, of course, would not be "GAIN" by any stretch of anyone's very vivid imagination, but rather QUITE DISTINCT LOSS! Is "soul-sleep" BETTER than being alive & serving Christ here today? The answer is fairly obvious. It all tends to be both depressing & tragicomic. What might one have against being "with Christ" as opposed to an imagined state of "nothingness"? If it doesn't make for being too bold, may one enquire as to whether you're a special fan of either the haberdasher, C.T. Russell, out of Alleghany, Pennsylvania, or of that sweet but palpably erroneous lady, E.G.H.W., who would call us all back to Judaic tenets beginning with the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath, "annihilationism," and on to the fallacy of an "investigative judgment"? Rowing harder never helps, of course, if the boat's headed in the wrong direction, yes?

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

AD, I resent the fact you bring my name into something I never said or implied. Please read my posts more carefully. When did I ever mention a ' real ' biblical lake of fire ? Where did I mention Christ annihilated ? Or support soul-sleep when I clearly said I had never heard of it ? I think you would do well to retract those allegations and apply them to the guilty parties.

Beta

whether you have ever heard of annihilationism or soul sleep that is what you are teaching clearly within this thread as you do not believe the wicked will be tormented forever but they will simply die and be no more without eternal punishment forever but you think that simply being no more is that eternal punishment and that is "annilationism" and you also believe that when the body goes to the grave for believers that the soul dies with the body and that is soul sleep whether you have ever heard of these terms before or not that is what you are teaching just the same.

OC

[Beta]

OC, all these human terms you attach to scriptures are YOUR problems, they are certainly not mentioned in the Bible and that is what counts with me. You may think whatever you wish.

[Openly Curious]

OC, all these human terms you attach to scriptures are YOUR problems, they are certainly not mentioned in the Bible and that is what counts with me. You may think whatever you wish.

What human terms are you referring to that I am "attaching" to scriptures?

Why do you avoid my question regarding Revelation 16:3?

In your description of how man became a living soul in Genesis 2:7 you make God sound like some sort of wind mill (wind/air) when he breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living soul.

You say your agenda is to "prove" the mortality of the soul but yet you avoid a very legitimate question I have asked in this regards of who the "living souls" were that died and what happened to their souls in Revelation 16:3 why is this exactly?

Is it still not your agenda to "prove" the mortality of the soul?

OC

[WillingToDie]

Beta's take on immortality & the existence of a real biblical lake of fire reads like something out of Charles Taze Russell's (or Ellen Gould Harmon White's for that matter) "play-book." We are mortal & Paul says we shall "put on immortality" when we see Jesus. In the meantime, the Holy Scriptures are abundantly clear that at death we enter the very Presence of Christ, Who is far from "annihilated" - "To live is Christ, to die is GAIN" & such stated "GAIN" cannot refer to, by the very nature of the word, the cultist view of "annihilationism" or "soul-sleep," which, of course, would not be "GAIN" by any stretch of anyone's very vivid imagination, but rather QUITE DISTINCT LOSS! Is "soul-sleep" BETTER than being alive & serving Christ here today? The answer is fairly obvious. It all tends to be both depressing & tragicomic. What might one have against being "with Christ" as opposed to an imagined state of "nothingness"? If it doesn't make for being too bold, may one enquire as to whether you're a special fan of either the haberdasher, C.T. Russell, out of Alleghany, Pennsylvania, or of that sweet but palpably erroneous lady, E.G.H.W., who would call us all back to Judaic tenets beginning with the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath, "annihilationism," and on to the fallacy of an "investigative judgment"? Rowing harder never helps, of course, if the boat's headed in the wrong direction, yes?

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

AD, I resent the fact you bring my name into something I never said or implied. Please read my posts more carefully. When did I ever mention a ' real ' biblical lake of fire ? Where did I mention Christ annihilated ? Or support soul-sleep when I clearly said I had never heard of it ? I think you would do well to retract those allegations and apply them to the guilty parties.

Beta

whether you have ever heard of annihilationism or soul sleep that is what you are teaching clearly within this thread as you do not believe the wicked will be tormented forever but they will simply die and be no more without eternal punishment forever but you think that simply being no more is that eternal punishment and that is "annilationism" and you also believe that when the body goes to the grave for believers that the soul dies with the body and that is soul sleep whether you have ever heard of these terms before or not that is what you are teaching just the same.

OC

There's a distinction between Limited Immortality of the Soul and Annihilationism. Limited Immortality is the belief that the soul is not naturally mortal, and is "gifted" with immortality by God if saved by Christ. Annihilationism is the idea that the soul is naturally immortal, but rather than an eternity in Hell, those not saved are destroyed in some form of another.

I feel the latter to be more biblical that the former.

[Beta]

As seen from scripture man has a mortal soul - but as scripture also says there is more to it than this plain fact. A whole lot happens before we reach our final destination whether in the kingdom of God or in gehenna fire.

Heb.9 v 27 it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgement.

All men will at some point stand before the judgement seat of God . Yet it would appear that some are already judged now 1Pt.4 v 17 who are of the household of God. How could that be if they had not died first ? Is there an exception for some ? If we look at this in a spiritual sense we will get our answer - perhaps in a different topic.

[Openly Curious]

As seen from scripture man has a mortal soul - but as scripture also says there is more to it than this plain fact. A whole lot happens before we reach our final destination whether in the kingdom of God or in gehenna fire.

Heb.9 v 27 it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgement.

All men will at some point stand before the judgement seat of God . Yet it would appear that some are already judged now 1Pt.4 v 17 who are of the household of God. How could that be if they had not died first ? Is there an exception for some ? If we look at this in a spiritual sense we will get our answer - perhaps in a different topic.

Why don't you give me your version of the "mortal soul" What is it exactly one more time?

What is the more to it you say that is the plain fact that scripture also says?

would you care to explain the process in which you are referring before we reach our final destination?

Yes I believe it is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgment I believe I introduced that already in my post. Also I believe that all men good and bad will stand before the judgment seat of God as I already said that also. So we agree on these two points.

You reference 1 Peter 4:7 I will add verse 6 into it for us which I think is really what you are getting at anyway.

1 Peter 4:6-7--"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are "dead," that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Your questions are how can that be if they had not died first? Is there and explanation for some?

Beta it can be because the whole world lieth in sin or was under judgment and still is under the judgment to come hence Revelation is still up ahead in the future of this world and no one can stop it from coming to pass it will most asssuredly happen as it written. But everyone born has a choice to make with his or her life to accept the atoneing sacrifice that Christ came into the world and gave his own body for that atoning sacrifice that appeased the wrath of God. Those who accepted that sacrifice have been judged already and their past sins were forgiven and erased the household of God is no longer under the judgment of God because of Christ blood that made us part of that household of God. the household of God are the firstfruits from the dead. (Hebrews 12:22-29) As we were "dead" in our tresspasses and sins not dead physically yet. (Romans 6:11,23 & Ephesians 2:1-22)

The "dead" in 1 Peter 4:6 are the unbelievers in this world that still are dead in their tresspasses and sins and are unregenerated or born again.

WHO do you think the "DEAD" are in 1 Peter 4:6?

What is your interpretation of "DEAD" in that verse?

The unbelievers in this world are still under the wrath and judgment of God and they shall not escape and are without excuse (Romans 2:1-16) before God. For our Heavenly Father sent his only begotten Son into this world so that none of us would perish but that we all would have everlasting life but not everyone born under the sun will do that and escape the wrath to come on the wicked. those who do not accept Christ willingly repenting and turning away from their sins are not saved from the wrath to come on the wicked. They are not part of the household of God his family and his children. Because they once again are still "DEAD" in their tresspasses and sins but we as the saints of God are made alive spiritually as we were quicked when we were born again (Hebrews 9:14)

your second question in which you asked, Is there and explanation for some?

Depends on your interpretation of the scriptures in 1 Peter 4:6-7 if you care to tell us what that is more clearly?

Still am very curious as your interpretation of who the living souls are in Revelation 16:3 and what happens to their souls?

OC

[Pilgrim7]

Beta,

Here are a few more verses:

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (notice that is called the day of wrath, not the eternity of wrath)

2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (why seek for something you already have?)

1ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (here Scripture says that only Jesus has immortality.)

2ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (It seems that immortality has only been brought to light by the Gospel and not at birth. It comes only through the 2nd birth, at conversion.)

The doctrine of an immortal soul has been around since the Garden of Eden. It was the first lie that Satan told Eve, as he beguiled her into sin, telling her that if she sinned, she would not surely die, in other words, the wages of sin is not death. And that is not talking about the first death, for all die the 1st death, even the saved. It is the second death, that the wicked suffer, and yes it is a death, in the lake of fire.

God bless,

Dennis

[Beta]

Beta,

Here are a few more verses:

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (notice that is called the day of wrath, not the eternity of wrath)

2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (why seek for something you already have?)

1ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (here Scripture says that only Jesus has immortality.)

2ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (It seems that immortality has only been brought to light by the Gospel and not at birth. It comes only through the 2nd birth, at conversion.)

The doctrine of an immortal soul has been around since the Garden of Eden. It was the first lie that Satan told Eve, as he beguiled her into sin, telling her that if she sinned, she would not surely die, in other words, the wages of sin is not death. And that is not talking about the first death, for all die the 1st death, even the saved. It is the second death, that the wicked suffer, and yes it is a death, in the lake of fire.

God bless,

Dennis

You make a very good point Dennis, but why address ' immortality ' to me ? I am not the one advocating it but exactly the opposite. I am quoting scripture that says man is mortal and the soul can die or be destroyed in hell-fire in the second death. All that is scriptural and I have never once said the soul is immortal. We are to put on immortality which is a different thing altogether but never got round to discussing because of the bullying tactics and mockery some indulge in. I refuse to take part in such.

Perhaps your post might be better addressed to those opposing scripture. Thank you Dennis.

[Pilgrim7]

Beta,

I understand what you were saying. I was just trying to encourage and bolster your point and show you that you aren't alone. It can be pretty lonely here. All will read the post, it doesn't matter who it is addressed to. Our job is just to spread the truth, not to convince anyone. When truth is given, the Holy Spirit always witnesses to those who hear His voice, although sometimes it takes a while, so don't give up hope. Most people have been raised with this doctrine and that is all they have heard. Their churches teach it, their pastors believe it and they just have a hard time coming to grips with the fact the they could be wrong.

My point is that there is no inherent immortality. It is all procured from Jesus when He comes to dwell in the heart at conversion He brings His immortality with Him. This is when one passes from death to life.

I'm on your side. When two or more agree, it is a more powerful witness than any arguement.

God bless,

Dennis