Fulfilled Prophecies from Isaiah

[TheProcess]

If "young woman" in question is not chaste, and thus not a virgin, if she did not conceive while yet a virgin, what kind of sign would it be? It would be silly to offer as a sign, a woman giving birth via the natural biological process and order. A woman conceiving and giving birth as a virgin, would, logically serve as a more effective "sign."

Firstly, I think the point of the child in Isaiah 7 was that before such and such a time a certain outcome will have been realized, so displaying God's providence. Something like that. And I think "signs" in the Bible weren't always something that we would understand today as a "miracle".

Secondly, a virgin birth is a rubbish sign -- you can't really have an eyewitness to a virginal conception can you? You needed angels to tell Mary and Joseph about it for heaven's sake! How would anyone else know? How would it be a "sign"?

Perhaps if there were some intimate examination of Mary you could tell if she were really a virgin? But would Mary really want strangers to be doing this? It all starts to look a bit distasteful if we go down that path.

[Candi770]

QUOTE

So the RSV says "young woman"...so what? She is clearly a virgin in all other versions. A young woman or girl meant virgin.

She was a virgin in the other versions due to a mistranslation. I'm referring only to the verse in Isaiah....not the NT verses; I've never heard or read of anyone saying the verse in Matthew or Luke is a mistranslation.

It is amazing how this is even debated. The whole virgin or not argument is completely unnecessary except that it is merely an attempt to rob Jesus of Deity.

Hypathia, you have already stated that you believe that Joseph was Jesus' father inspite of the fact that the New Testament that Mary and Joseph did not have relations prior to being married, and prior to Jesus' conception. Your rejection of that simple truth from Scripture shows that you pick and choose what parts of the Bible you believe.

You do not believe Jesus to be the product of the Holy Spirit' overshadowing of Mary, which means you have to reject the Deity of Jesus, which puts you outside the bounds of the Christian faith. You cannot claim to be a Christian and reject the Deity of the Jesus and reject what the Bible says whenever you feel it is convenient to do so. The Bible is not a smorgasboard where you can pick and choose according to your taste and still claim to be a Christian.

As for Almah... If you knew Hebrew, you would know that "almah" is a word that describes young women in different categories. It is true that the word does not mean "virgin," however all of the categories of young women it refers to all have one thing in common. They are virgins. So rendering the word "virgin" does no violence to the text, and accurately describes the young woman.

There are two words people usually argue over, namely "betulah" and "almah." Both are virgins. "betulah" is younger and is a long way from matrimoney. Alamah is a virgin, and a young woman of marriable age.

Matthew was correct in rendering the term "virgin," because Mary, was an "almah" and a virgin who was "betrothed" to Joseph to be his wife.

Another point is that this was to be offered as a "sign" in you notice in the first part of the verse. If "young woman" in question is not chaste, and thus not a virgin, if she did not conceive while yet a virgin, what kind of sign would it be? It would be silly to offer as a sign, a woman giving birth via the natural biological process and order. A woman conceiving and giving birth as a virgin, would, logically serve as a more effective "sign."

AWESOME!!!

[Hypathia]

Wow, maybe I'm not a Christian after all. I do not believe in the virgin birth, I think Mary and Joseph had sexual relations and got Jesus as a result of that. Maybe the later authors got the "virgin birth" part of the story wrong or maybe Mary and Joseph panicked and made it up. I know if a teenage girl now-a-days got pregnant and said she was a virgin I'd laugh cause that just doesn't happen and placing it back in time 2000 yrs doesn't make it any more believable to me than having it happen in 2006. I do not believe in the Trinity (that's polytheism and I'm a monotheist); the "trinity" doctrine was determined by vote at the Council of Nicea.

Of course, I do believe in God and I do not think God is a liar and I have read the bible (been doing that for over 40 yrs). I'll be blunt too cj, I think you evangelicals for the most part are just flat out wrong in your interpretations but moreso in your attitude. You proclaim to search for the truth but really you don't want anything but reaffirmation of what you already believe which is some men's interpretation. Floatingax as much as says that a person isn't allowed to think because it's too dangerous. Dangerous to who? The denomination of course because it sure isn't dangerous to God. If someone points out a different view or interpretation you all pile on like a pack of wild dogs never stopping to consider that you might be wrong.

I'm well aware of the fact that Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah, but have you ever wondered why? Have you ever bothered to ask? I'd never thought much about what Jews believe until the past year or two, I just kind of took it for granted that they see the OT the way we do and were just in rebellion; not true. I agree with them on their views of the afterlife. They don't believe in eternal hell and they don't believe in Satan either (not the way we do). I think I'm gonna started investigating why they don't accept Jesus as Messiah; there must be some Biblical reason for it. I've been avoiding that for obvious reasons but I think God wants me to. -- I'm not lost at all people; in fact, in the past few years I feel closer to God than ever and I feel like I'm seeing things more and more clearly....but then life is a journey and there's a lot to learn as we make that journey; pray for guidance along the way.

Whether Isaiah says virgin or young woman is really beside the point because the rest of chapter 7 and chapter 8 tells you that the prophecy was fulfilled 700 B.C.

You could help me out though CJ. Could you redo your original post and put the bible verses next to each "proclamation" of phrophecy you make? It'll make it easier for me to look each one up.

I would like to add one thing that at the risk of sounding redundant that ANYONE who denies that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior is not only lost but does not have eternal life with our Father.

Sounds very redundant and downright shrill, not to mention extremely biased (as Jesus Admirer describes the Jews), it sounds shrill even thru a computer (just being honest).

BTW - The Today Show on NBC is featuring religion this week and last Friday they did a segment on Jewish Heaven. The segment covers heaven and hell. Here's the link and the video can be launched from there if you want to see it:

Jewish Faith and The Afterlife

Edited November 12, 2006 by Hypathia

[Guest shiloh357]

Of course, I do believe in God and I do not think God is a liar and I have read the bible (been doing that for over 40 yrs).

By saying that Jesus birth was not of Divine origin, by saying that Jesus' father is Joseph and not the Heaventy Father you are calling God a liar, and in truth it is also you who are lying. If you actualy read the Bible you would come across the statements from God the father.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

(Matthew 3:16-17)

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

(Matthew 17:5)

And Here is Peter's eyewitness testimony as well: For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

(2 Peter 1:17)

So clearly you do not believe the Bible, and you do not believe God. I don't care how long you alledge to have been reading the Bible, and I don't even know why you bother except to try and find things wrong with it. You are not a Christian, and you call God a liar, you don't believe His Words, and you don't even know the biblical language you arrogantly presume to lecture us about. You are unqualified to tell us anything about the Bible.

I'm well aware of the fact that Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah, but have you ever wondered why? Have you ever bothered to ask?

I'm Jewish, and am full aware why Jews don't believe in Jesus. I'm pretty sure I know better than you ever will, and I know plenty of other Jews who, like me, accept Christ as both Savior and Messiah. Do not presume to tell me anything about Jews. Just because you saw a TV program hardly qualifies you to challenge us on the issue. I can tell you more about Jewish unbelief than you care to know.

Whether Isaiah says virgin or young woman is really beside the point because the rest of chapter 7 and chapter 8 tells you that the prophecy was fulfilled 700 B.C.

Bull corn. It is not beside the point at all. Neither can you make the case that the child mentioned was born in 700 B.C. Any attempt to make this prophecy refer Isaiah's son, is futile. Your case is built around the fact that this is not a reference to a real virgin at all but to a young girl. In fact, since it is shown to be a fulfilled by the Messiah, the apostle Matthew under the power and inspiration of the Holy Spirit would not seen it as "beside the point."

It says that His Name shall be called Immanuel. It does not say, "he shall named, 'Immanuel.'" Immanuel is His rank and nature as it were. It denotes that Jesus is "God with us." This further emphasizes that His birth was not by the natural biological process, because God does not share His glory with anyone. He would not allow a mere man to be recognized as "God."

I'm not lost at all people; in fact, in the past few years I feel closer to God than ever and I feel like I'm seeing things more and more clearly

You are lost and you are deceived.

[Hypathia]

Well Shiloh it's like I said, I'm constantly learning on my life's journey. I've read the bible for years but that doesn't mean I buy into the interpretations of a few. There are a lot of Bible verses that point to behavior over one particular "belief" but those all too often get neglected.

I've never called God a liar so don't put words in my mouth. I do think Jesus is God's son; I just think God used the natural process He Himself put in place to bring about His Son's birth on this planet.

If I'm deceived then I guess I'll end up in a "Christian fiery hell" right along with all those poor Jewish people that perished in those Nazi death camps; and all the little non-Christian kids that have starved to death in Africa; and all the Quakers and Unitarians and Buddists. Is that where you think they are?

I don't try to speak for Jews but neither do you even if you are Jewish. I think a Jew can be Christian or Jewish and go to heaven just like anybody else. You're entitled to your opinion of what the Bible says and I'm entitled to mine; but unlike you and a few others around here, I'd NEVER presume to tell anyone they're "lost".

Good Day!

[Guest shiloh357]

Well Shiloh it's like I said, I'm constantly learning on my life's journey. I've read the bible for years but that doesn't mean I buy into the interpretations of a few. There are a lot of Bible verses that point to behavior over one particular "belief" but those all too often get neglected.

Oh really?? Like what???

I've never called God a liar so don't put words in my mouth. I do think Jesus is God's son; I just think God used the natural process He Himself put in place to bring about His Son's birth on this planet.

I am not putting words in your mouth. The Bible says that Joseph is not the biological Father Jesus. You say He is. You don't believe the Bible, the Bible is God's Word, and therefore you don't believe God.

The ridiculous notion that Jesus was fathered by both Joseph and God, exists only in your imagination, and is not the product of anything you read in the Bible. The Bible does not give you the option to believe that.

If I'm deceived then I guess I'll end up in a "Christian fiery hell" right along with all those poor Jewish people that perished in those Nazi death camps; and all the little non-Christian kids that have starved to death in Africa; and all the Quakers and Unitarians and Buddists. Is that where you think they are?

There is only one way into heaven that is through Jesus. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, and NO MAN (Jews, Buddhists, etc.) comes to Father but through me. If you are not born again, then you are sliding down a greased pole straight into hell as well.

I don't try to speak for Jews but neither do you even if you are Jewish. I think a Jew can be Christian or Jewish and go to heaven just like anybody else. You're entitled to your opinion of what the Bible says and I'm entitled to mine; but unlike you and a few others around here, I'd NEVER presume to tell anyone they're "lost".

I can spealk for Jews, being one. The truth is that you have entered an area of the discussion that you don't anything about, and I would advise you to tread lightly. Furthermore, I do not presume to tell anyone they are lost. I tell you based upon the authority of the Word of God that you are lost, and if you die tonight your will lose your soul for all eternity. The moment your die your soul will be required of you, and you will stand before God under the curse of sin and death, because you failed to obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and become born again.

[Hypathia]

Oh really?? Like what???

From my notes:

These verses emphasis works, taking an action, doing something:

James 2:21-24 (the same verse is used elsewhere to emphasis faith, take your pick)

Psalms 62:12

Jeremiah 17:10

Ezekiel 18:27

Matthew 12:37

Matthew 16:27

Matthew 19:17

Matthew 19:21

Matthew 25:41-46 (This one mentions hell waiting for those who don't do good works)

Luke 10:26-28

John 5:28-29

Romans 2:6

Romans 2:13

2 Corinthians 5:10

2 Corinthians 11:15

Phillippians 2:12

Hebrews 5:9

James 2:14-20

James 3:17

1 Peter 1:17

1 Peter 1:22

Revelation 2:23

Revelation 20:12-13

I admit I don't know everything; that's why I seek out other's viewpoints. But keep in mind that you do not know everything either.

You don't speak for all Jews anymore than I speak for all white, anglo-saxon Protestants. You speak for one; yourself and I speak for one; myself.

You're gonna be so surprised when you see me in heaven.

btw - I thought when a person was "born again" God would start to change them into a new (better) creature. Why does that goodness appear to be so absent from those who are always talking about being "born-again"? Could it be that they're more intested in paying lip-service to the idea and the slogan itself, than in letting God really change their hearts?

Edited November 12, 2006 by Hypathia

[Guest shiloh357]

From my notes:

These verses emphasis works, taking an action, doing something:

James 2:21-24 (the same verse is used elsewhere to emphasis faith, take your pick)

Psalms 62:12

Jeremiah 17:10

Ezekiel 18:27

Matthew 12:37

Matthew 16:27

Matthew 19:17

Matthew 19:21

Matthew 25:41-46 (This one mentions hell waiting for those who don't do good works)

Luke 10:26-28

John 5:28-29

Romans 2:6

Romans 2:13

2 Corinthians 5:10

2 Corinthians 11:15

Phillippians 2:12

Hebrews 5:9

James 2:14-20

James 3:17

1 Peter 1:17

1 Peter 1:22

Revelation 2:23

Revelation 20:12-13

So what does all of that prove???

I admit I don't know everything; that's why I seek out other's viewpoints. But keep in mind that you do not know everything either.

I don't know everything but it is clear that you are unskilled in handling the Word of God, and you are decieved into thinking you are going to get to heave without Jesus.

You don't speak for all Jews anymore than I speak for all white, anglo-saxon Protestants. You speak for one; yourself and I speak for one; myself.

I cannot speak for every individual Jew living on the planet, but I know my people and I know why they do what they do, and why they think how they think. I understand their rejection of Jesus, and it is not for the reasons you might presume. I certainly know more about them than you do. And for the purposes of is this discussion, it's enough.

You're gonna be so surprised when you see me in heaven.

NO, you are going to be surprised when you find out that Jesus was serious when he said, Unless a man is born again, he cannot enter the Kingdom Heaven." You are going to be surprised when you find out that you are not as clever with the Bible as you fancy yourself to be, and you will be surprised on the day of judgment when your name is not found in written in the Lamb's Book of Life and the Lord says to you, "Depart from me, for I never knew you." I am sorry but there is no surprise awaiting me, because I believe the Bible, and there will be no exceptions made for anyone. If you are not born again, you will not make it into the Kingdom of God, period

btw - I thought when a person was "born again" God would start to change them into a new (better) creature. Why does that goodness appear to be so absent from those who are always talking about being "born-again"? Could it be that they're more intested in paying lip-service to the idea and the slogan itself, than in letting God really change their hearts?

Which is nothing more than a way of getting around the truth we present. Being born again, does not mean that we become all "meek and mild," so that people like you can take advantage of our kindness, and rub our faith in our faces.

Having a changed heart, means among other things, that our will aligns itself with the Will of God, and that His views, and His agenda, becomes our own. It is what gives us the courage to stick to our guns in the face of guilt trips that people like try impose upon us, in an attempt to make us feel bad for being unwilling to compromise. Having a born again, changed heart, means that we believe what God says, and we believe it enough that we are not willing back away from it, just because it suit your taste.

[Hypathia]

So what does all of that prove???

I was answering your question.

I don't know everything but it is clear that you are unskilled in handling the Word of God, and you are decieved into thinking you are going to get to heave without Jesus.

I have God, and I have Jesus too plus I do my best in this life; I try to help people when I can; I strive always to do the right thing.

I cannot speak for every individual Jew living on the planet, but I know my people and I know why they do what they do, and why they think how they think. I understand their rejection of Jesus, and it is not for the reasons you might presume. I certainly know more about them than you do. And for the purposes of is this discussion, it's enough.

I'm not Jewish so I know very little about it; that's why I'm inquiring into it. I do agree with them in regards to what happens after we die. It makes the most sense plus it falls into line with some of those scriptures I gave you.

NO, you are going to be surprised when you find out that Jesus was serious when he said, Unless a man is born again, he cannot enter the Kingdom Heaven." You are going to be surprised when you find out that you are not as clever with the Bible as you fancy yourself to be, and you will be surprised on the day of judgment when your name is not found in written in the Lamb's Book of Life and the Lord says to you, "Depart from me, for I never knew you." I am sorry but there is no surprise awaiting me, because I believe the Bible, and there will be no exceptions made for anyone. If you are not born again, you will not make it into the Kingdom of God, period

I have been born again but not in the political sense that it means today which imo is how it is used. I think God is "working me over" from within; making a new creature of me. I think the Quakers refer to it as an inner-light which reminds me of that little song we used to sing in Vacation Bible School and Sunday School....this little light of mine; I'm gonna let it shine, this little light of mine; I'm gonna let it shine. I do believe that being truly born again is aligning with the will of God not the will of a handful of leaders on the religious right of the political spectrum and the agenda that comes with that. I don't use the term because when people hear it that's immediately what comes to mind; not Jesus; not God. I think these people have hi-jacked the term for their own purposes. ---- As far as I know it says nowhere in the Bible that I have to believe Jesus was born of a virgin or else. That doctrine was promoted in the Nicene Creed if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not trying to rub anything in anyone's face; I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty; I'm only trying to explain how I view and ponder things. I think you guys have been trying to make me feel bad not to mention how "smug" and threatening a few of your reponses have been.

[Floatingaxe]

2 Peter 1:19-21...

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

As the prophets never interpreted their prophecies with their own minds---neither should we engage in any freelance interpretation either. The Holy Spirit is our interpreter. Tune into Him.