Fulfilled Prophecies from Isaiah

[Candi770]

I thought a forum was for discussion; not scolding people for different information, ideas, etc?

What example of Christ are we, if we debate in the presence of unbelievers on vital issues concerning virgin birth??

Are you denying that Mary was a virgin?? Are you denying the prophecies of Christ?? In doing this would it be denying Christ???

Just a question, not meant to be mean.

[Hypathia]

I thought a forum was for discussion; not scolding people for different information, ideas, etc?

What example of Christ are we, if we debate in the presence of unbelievers on vital issues concerning virgin birth??

Are you denying that Mary was a virgin?? Are you denying the prophecies of Christ?? In doing this would it be denying Christ???

Just a question, not meant to be mean.

No I don't think Mary was a virgin; I think Joseph was Jesus' father. In fact, it seems to me that this wholely human conception and birth more closely follow other parts of the Old Testament that talk about the coming Messiah. It's been a while since I studied or looked at prophecy closely (that was never my primary interest) but I did for a while there and as I remember it the Messiah was suppose to be fully human.

I haven't examined every single prophecy that the original poster put up; I was only commenting that in Isaiah chapter 7 the prophecy was fulfilled in Isaiah chapter 8 and that it didn't apply to Jesus. (I know others disagree). I disagree with your blanket statement: In doing this would it be denying Christ??? Everyone doesn't have to agree on every point within Christianity; that's why we have close to 40,000 denominations just within our own religion.

Okay I just looked this one up; compare these two New Testament verses; I sure you know the first one but have you ever noticed the second one?

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

It's kind of fun to try and figure it all out, comparing verses and all.

[cjrose]

I don't know about all the things on your list but this one is not a fulfilled prophecy:

Prophecy: will be born of a virgin (Is.7:14)

Fulfillment: was born of a virgin named Mary (Luke 1:26-31)

From my study notes:

This is not a prophecy of a virgin birth, not a prophecy about Jesus and probably not a prophecy at all. When examined in the context of the surrounding chapters of this book, this verse looks more like a discussion of an upcoming event in the author's life.

The verse thought to be a prophecy appears at Isaiah 7:14 - "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el." (RSV the most accurate translation of the Bible).

The Hebrew word is ALMAH (al-mah) and it is used 7 times in the Bible. Strictly speaking, it means young woman but depending on the Bible that you are using, it is translated as virgin, maiden and damsel, as well. There is another Hebrew word which is specifically translated as virgin. It is BETHULAH (be-too-lah) and it appears in the Bible 50 times. 38 times it is translated as virgin while the other 12 are spread out over the words maid and maiden. As you can see, there is some question if this word is properly translated. Jewish websites confirm that

[cjrose]

Having gone through this thread, here is my opinion of the issue of fulfilled prophecies. When God gave us the Bible, he didn't do so in a manner that was always easily seen. There is the obvious meaning of a paticular text. In addition, there are also hidden mysteries within the text. The casual reader can only see the obvious, and when arguing something, they rely only on things such as the historical significance of what is written, and what lies on the surface. The Old Testament is full of prophecies, and they are hidden throughout. Some are in the books of the prophets, some in the Psalms, and even some are hidden in types and shadows of things, such as the story of Jonah relating to Christ spending 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth.

Matthew did not make up things, and claim they were fulfillments of prophecy. In the example of Christ being known as a Nazarene, there were types of this shown in others that were called to be Nazarenes. No, there is no place where the scriptures in the Old Testament actually say Christ will be a Nazarene, but just as Jonah was a sign, so were other prophets a sign when they were called to be a Nazarene from birth. I don't expect this to satisfy atheists, but that is the reality of it.

God did not intend his Word to be easily understood by non-believers. He did give them the general mental capacity to understand on a surface level, but not on a spiritual one. God did not intend that believers would fully grasp all the hidden mysteries in one reading. He desires that we meditate on his Word and seek him for understanding. That is why Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables, so that seeing they would not see, and hearing they would not hear. The hidden things of God are spiritually discerned.

I am a believer in the innerency of scripture, and hold to the King James Version of the Bible as the only accurate English translation. I believe that just as God used people to pen the scriptures in Greek and Hebrew, he also inspired the King James translators to come up with a perfect English translation, and I fully trust in it's reliability. I do not share the same confidence in the modern English translations that are coming out by the multitudes today. Whenever I read how someone claims they found contradictions or errors in the Bible, it is always the result of their carnal mind not being able to see the hidden truth. It is also their desire to prove God out to be a liar, because they do not want to accept that he is real, and therefore that they will be held accountable for the way they live their life.

Well put Butero! Your posts are always like minded though you have a much better use of words than I, this is awesome, thank you.

[Hypathia]

For a Christian you went through a lot of trouble to attempt to disprove God's Word as Truth. It is incomprehensible to me as a child of God to attempt to prove Him wrong, as I simply trust God's Word as Truth.

Oh a little dig there I see lol.

I'm not trying to disprove God's Truth; God isn't wrong but people often are. Studying the Bible is fun, not trouble.

The prophesy is too time specific to appeal to the house of David in general I think. I think that's an excuse to maintain this particular prophesy that has become such a large part of Christian prophesy. I'll stick with the Jew's interpretation of Isaiah; they're more familiar with the Hebrew language than anyone and they say it's young woman. I'm pretty sure the RSV Bible translates it that way too. Yep it does: 14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.

Edited November 11, 2006 by Hypathia

[cjrose]

Actually I'm not "hung up" on the mistranslation of the word "virgin" (I do believe it was a mistranslation on the part of whoever authored the book of Matthew) but to get hung up on that point is like not seeing the forrest for the trees. Go back and reread my post, with your bible open to follow along.

The thing that I find most important is that the prophesy occurs in chapter seven but the fullfillment of that prophesy occurs in chapter 8 but Christians miss that part; I think we're taught to miss it to be quite frank. Let me repost the last part of what I wrote; this is very significant.:

In addition to this is the problem that the prophecy was framed in such a way that for it to be true, it would need to occur in the time of King Ahaz. Lastly, we see that the child is indeed born during Ahaz's time as chapter 8 shows us.Far from being a prophecy of a virgin birth, we find a regular pregnancy some 700 years prior to the birth of Jesus and that this

[cjrose]

cj - I have absolutely no idea why you responded to me with that hateful post.

If you were offended by me, I apologize. Hateful is a powerful word that doesn't live in my heart and though it does puzzle me by using such a word, I do humbly apologize for any misunderstanding.

Peace

[cjrose]

Well, CJ, all the prophecies you wrote are true, Isaiah was an awesome Prophet. Whether people listened to him or not in his day-still came to pass!!

They are blinded to the truth of God.

And I have no idea why a christian would debate the virgin birth.

Mary indeed was a virgin??

Why would she have asked the angel in Luke 1verse 34 "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

the word "know" used in this scripture is a jewish idiom for "sexual intercourse between a man and a woman".

In the end, the Glory is given to Lord Jesus, who fulfills his prophecies- Glory can not be given to doubters and twisters of the truth. Lets just exalt Jesus in the middle of it all.

Everyone must be born again. THis is the only way to Father God-through Jesus Christ. Reject Jesus, you are rejected of Father God. No other way that man can be saved.

Thanks again for sharing your heart CJ

candi

Thank you candi for always such encouragement and support. you are a blessing to all!

[Candi770]

I thought a forum was for discussion; not scolding people for different information, ideas, etc?

What example of Christ are we, if we debate in the presence of unbelievers on vital issues concerning virgin birth??

Are you denying that Mary was a virgin?? Are you denying the prophecies of Christ?? In doing this would it be denying Christ???

Just a question, not meant to be mean.

No I don't think Mary was a virgin; I think Joseph was Jesus' father. In fact, it seems to me that this wholely human conception and birth more closely follow other parts of the Old Testament that talk about the coming Messiah. It's been a while since I studied or looked at prophecy closely (that was never my primary interest) but I did for a while there and as I remember it the Messiah was suppose to be fully human.

I haven't examined every single prophecy that the original poster put up; I was only commenting that in Isaiah chapter 7 the prophecy was fulfilled in Isaiah chapter 8 and that it didn't apply to Jesus. (I know others disagree). I disagree with your blanket statement: In doing this would it be denying Christ??? Everyone doesn't have to agree on every point within Christianity; that's why we have close to 40,000 denominations just within our own religion.

Okay I just looked this one up; compare these two New Testament verses; I sure you know the first one but have you ever noticed the second one?

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

It's kind of fun to try and figure it all out, comparing verses and all.

Jesus is connected to the Lineage of David through the marriage of Joseph and Mary. But Joseph was descended from Solomon while Mary was a descendant of Solomon's brother Nathan. So they were actually cousins many times removed.

Why can't you disclose the denomination you are in??? Sorry, Just really curious.

I know that Jews deny the virgin birth. Are you a Jew?? Obviously not messianic then.

[cjrose]

I thought a forum was for discussion; not scolding people for different information, ideas, etc?

What example of Christ are we, if we debate in the presence of unbelievers on vital issues concerning virgin birth??

Are you denying that Mary was a virgin?? Are you denying the prophecies of Christ?? In doing this would it be denying Christ???

Just a question, not meant to be mean.

No I don't think Mary was a virgin; I think Joseph was Jesus' father. In fact, it seems to me that this wholely human conception and birth more closely follow other parts of the Old Testament that talk about the coming Messiah. It's been a while since I studied or looked at prophecy closely (that was never my primary interest) but I did for a while there and as I remember it the Messiah was suppose to be fully human.

I haven't examined every single prophecy that the original poster put up; I was only commenting that in Isaiah chapter 7 the prophecy was fulfilled in Isaiah chapter 8 and that it didn't apply to Jesus. (I know others disagree). I disagree with your blanket statement: In doing this would it be denying Christ??? Everyone doesn't have to agree on every point within Christianity; that's why we have close to 40,000 denominations just within our own religion.

Okay I just looked this one up; compare these two New Testament verses; I sure you know the first one but have you ever noticed the second one?

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

It's kind of fun to try and figure it all out, comparing verses and all.

Sorry if you feel you are being scolded but seriously, by denying that God sent His Son Jesus to the world through a virgin birth, placed in her womb by the Holy Spirit is pretty much calling God a liar.

You also claim you are not born again and are flipant about it as salvation is the most important gift we can recieve and we receive that by re-birth in Christ. Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?

Curious. As most of the Jewish people do not recognize the NT which means they do not believe Jesus is the Messiah and are still waiting. They can wait and find out the truth upon our Lords return.

I hope you find what you are looking for in your book but the Bible is the best source to get to know Jesus. Happy reading.