Gifts of the Holy Spirit

[RCruise]

I agree with some of what you have said rc.

However do you believe that Matthew and all other believers who do not evidence some outward gift of the spirit such as tongues or healings, do not have the Holy Spirit?

Hi Smalcald;

I thought I made it clear in the post that this is Not a Salvation issue? I believe it is a Faith issue but, we are saved by "Grace through Faith" both given of God. How much we Take or "partake" of both is up to us. I believe our Faith has to be and will be "tried" to purify it and build it. If we refuse or resist, I see a danger of people walking away or departing from the really hard and Tribulational times today and the worse that's coming.

But, no, Salvation is exactly what The Scripture says it is. It is a perpetual abiding on our part in the Free Gift and architecting by Jesus Christ.

[nebula]

Holy Spirit,

Rain down on me!

[Joshua-777]

When we come together it is suppose to be uplifting and inspirational to our walk with our Lord, not something to fear but be discerning in spirit! We have a tendancy to judge before we discern in our spirit of something God is doing. When God is moving in our congregations we should allow Him to freely and openly and not try to call it demonic unless it really is. Ask the Lord to show you what is of Him and He will. There are times the enemy will be working side by side mimicking God as did when Moses was trying to free God's people. The enemy will show up wherever people gather, because we have opened doors to the enemy and he has the right to show up when the door is open. It is the job of the believer to close those doors and open to the Spirit of God. I am sure God will do things the way He wants to whether you believe it or not and use whomvever he choses to use without our approval. Shoot He even uses satan to His advantage all the time which I'm sure really gets his goat! So if you really want to know if things are of God ask Him and I'm sure He will let you know in your spirit!!!

Amen, AMen, and AMen.

[Joshua-777]

Rcruise, thanks for the excellent reply. I have a question though. Was the leg healed immidiately and the pain disappeared? Or did you have pain come back later on? Being slain in the spirit is not at all biblical. Not one bit! Ive seen the verses that some people try to use in order to defend the practice but its almost laughable that they think that rationalizes it. If it is not proved within the Bible I will not practice it. It is then a unchristian practice. Anything not found in his word is not something we should be doin. We are to pray to the Lord, sing songs and worship the Lord, help out the churches of the Lord, and help others find Jesus. Thats a few things we are to do. I not complete against tongues, prophecy, or knowledge but I have failed to see any proof for any of the three. Show me on audio or video where someone uses the gifts. Heck, you could find a video of almost anything on youtube.com. Why not some footage of a miracle? I really just want to see it. Your brother in Christ, matthew

I forgot to add one thing;

This evangelist would have "catchers" position themselves then lay hands and pray. When he turned toward me, the "catchers" were still laying the other person down. His hands never got closer than a foot and half from me when it was "out time with The Lord" for me. Nobody there to catch me. They do that so no one hurts themself. I hit the floor hard too. This was all told to me later by my wife and several witnesses. So, he never touched me nor did anyone break my fall except Jesus.

Ok, if they do exist today then how do I supposedly recieve them and how come I havent already? Ive accepted Jesus Christ into my life as Lord and savior and I've been baptized. Plus, I havent had any visions or dreams(none that I remember) that could have come from God. You guys are right. The scripture points to it. Nobody had ever showed me a certain part in acts until someone put it one here the other day. let me find it. Here it is. Acts 2:37-39. To me, that has to be the most significant proof for the gifts of the spirit being here today. But still, I just dont see it today. This is my problem. Im going to do more research but I guess I just need to spend time by myself studying and praying to the Lord so that he will show me. I dont really want to go to an evangelist church though cause it scares the crap out of me. No offense to anyone that does go. Maybe I just dont quite understand yet. Honestly Im very confused. I thought I knew something and it turns out I didnt really know at all. Well, please pray for me in this. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Hi Matthew, never let anyone add requirements to your faith, you are saved by faith alone as we all are. Only the Holy Spirit gives faith in Christ and if you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart in Christ as Lord, you are saved. The formula is not faith plus speaking in tongues or faith plus healing.

I do believe in healing and tongues, but as scripture says; not everyone does these things, they are not a requirement of faith or salvation and frankly are sometimes horribly abused in today's congregations. Maybe you have the calling of administrations or prophecy or compassion and love? As Paul says, love trumps all of these gifts. I am not trying to take away from these gifts, scripture says do not despise these things and I don't, I have an open mind on them.

The true miracle is faith and the fact that we are going to be with Christ in eternity. My body is going to die regardless of how many healings it has received, and without faith these healings are utterly worthless and void. But I would just be at peace, and if you are given one of these gifts great, if not great, it does not impact our salvation or our calling and should never trouble us. As Floating Ax said we don

[Smalcald]

I agree with some of what you have said rc.

However do you believe that Matthew and all other believers who do not evidence some outward gift of the spirit such as tongues or healings, do not have the Holy Spirit?

Hi Smalcald;

I thought I made it clear in the post that this is Not a Salvation issue? I believe it is a Faith issue but, we are saved by "Grace through Faith" both given of God. How much we Take or "partake" of both is up to us. I believe our Faith has to be and will be "tried" to purify it and build it. If we refuse or resist, I see a danger of people walking away or departing from the really hard and Tribulational times today and the worse that's coming.

But, no, Salvation is exactly what The Scripture says it is. It is a perpetual abiding on our part in the Free Gift and architecting by Jesus Christ.

I don't know how you separate faith from salvation; are you talking about sanctification?

Like I have said I do not judge these outward gifts but I don't think they are a sign of partaking or not partaking of faith or grace anymore than any other believer. I don

[matthew4:4]

Rcruise, thanks for the excellent reply. I have a question though. Was the leg healed immidiately and the pain disappeared? Or did you have pain come back later on? Being slain in the spirit is not at all biblical. Not one bit! Ive seen the verses that some people try to use in order to defend the practice but its almost laughable that they think that rationalizes it. If it is not proved within the Bible I will not practice it. It is then a unchristian practice. Anything not found in his word is not something we should be doin. We are to pray to the Lord, sing songs and worship the Lord, help out the churches of the Lord, and help others find Jesus. Thats a few things we are to do. I not complete against tongues, prophecy, or knowledge but I have failed to see any proof for any of the three. Show me on audio or video where someone uses the gifts. Heck, you could find a video of almost anything on youtube.com. Why not some footage of a miracle? I really just want to see it. Your brother in Christ, matthew

I forgot to add one thing;

This evangelist would have "catchers" position themselves then lay hands and pray. When he turned toward me, the "catchers" were still laying the other person down. His hands never got closer than a foot and half from me when it was "out time with The Lord" for me. Nobody there to catch me. They do that so no one hurts themself. I hit the floor hard too. This was all told to me later by my wife and several witnesses. So, he never touched me nor did anyone break my fall except Jesus.

Ok, if they do exist today then how do I supposedly recieve them and how come I havent already? Ive accepted Jesus Christ into my life as Lord and savior and I've been baptized. Plus, I havent had any visions or dreams(none that I remember) that could have come from God. You guys are right. The scripture points to it. Nobody had ever showed me a certain part in acts until someone put it one here the other day. let me find it. Here it is. Acts 2:37-39. To me, that has to be the most significant proof for the gifts of the spirit being here today. But still, I just dont see it today. This is my problem. Im going to do more research but I guess I just need to spend time by myself studying and praying to the Lord so that he will show me. I dont really want to go to an evangelist church though cause it scares the crap out of me. No offense to anyone that does go. Maybe I just dont quite understand yet. Honestly Im very confused. I thought I knew something and it turns out I didnt really know at all. Well, please pray for me in this. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Hi Matthew, never let anyone add requirements to your faith, you are saved by faith alone as we all are. Only the Holy Spirit gives faith in Christ and if you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart in Christ as Lord, you are saved. The formula is not faith plus speaking in tongues or faith plus healing.

I do believe in healing and tongues, but as scripture says; not everyone does these things, they are not a requirement of faith or salvation and frankly are sometimes horribly abused in today's congregations. Maybe you have the calling of administrations or prophecy or compassion and love? As Paul says, love trumps all of these gifts. I am not trying to take away from these gifts, scripture says do not despise these things and I don't, I have an open mind on them.

The true miracle is faith and the fact that we are going to be with Christ in eternity. My body is going to die regardless of how many healings it has received, and without faith these healings are utterly worthless and void. But I would just be at peace, and if you are given one of these gifts great, if not great, it does not impact our salvation or our calling and should never trouble us. As Floating Ax said we don

[Floatingaxe]

Great, matthew! Be bold and adventurous in the Lord, and seek all that He has for you! You can come to my church anytime!

[Sherman]

Amen guys,

It is all about love! That's why Paul gives his wonderful discourse on love in the middle of discussing spiritual gifts, because when spiritual gifts operate out of anything but love they cause trouble instead of being a blessing. And then we also have those with gifts who are immature in their use of these gifts and grow through reason of use. As leaders in the church it's important to help people understand and grow in their gifts and seek new-to-them gifts.

Blessings,

Sherman

p.s. I've been busy lately and just have not had time to do much posting. I'm glad to see everyone growing in their love for and faith in God.

[RCruise]

I don't know how you separate faith from salvation; are you talking about sanctification?

Like I have said I do not judge these outward gifts but I don't think they are a sign of partaking or not partaking of faith or grace anymore than any other believer. I don't really see this as some sort ladder of faith. Remember for example that the gift of administrations or teaching is just as important if not more as the gift of tongues, which are only a sign for unbelievers. Also there is no scriptural directive that all who have faith will have all of these gifts or any of them for that matter, as it says some will be teachers, some will prophesy, etc. Love of course as Paul said would trump them all. Thus the gift of showing true love would be what we should truly desire, and yes let the Holy Spirit rain down upon us to have this love and increase our faith, and yes let those who have other gifts use them to spread the Word and glorify God.

Hi Smalcald,

First, you cannot separate Faith from Salvation. When I spoke of Faith, I spoke of the degree or "measure" of Faith. Sanctification is by the once and forever offering of Christ's Blood and sealed by The Holy Spirit. We fairly well agree on most of this. I do not speak in tongues and have been judged unfairly in times past and there are some who say you are not saved. They lie. Paul also said to seek the Gift of Prophesying more than tongues for Prophesy Edifies the Body. Some take this to mean a new and currently unknown thing and even some believe this prophesying is only done through tongues with interpretation. They are in derision and have not studied that they might have wisdom of God and not man.

My Gift as The Lord has revealed in me is to teach and exhort His Word in Love as you mentioned Paul brought forth to the Corinthians. Oddly, my wife and I have found that when we pray together binding in Love, we see the Lord move yet, when we have prayed apart, they are not as effectual. We have a prayer ministry within our ministry where we have many people and other Churches and Ministries onboard praying. Yet, we together (my wife and myself), found that when we bind these Requests we receive in unity of prayer, answers come quickly for the simplist to the most urgent. It is a Gift of God by the Holy Spirit.

But I also know this, that not all who believe they have the Holy Spirit do. Not all in Scripture had Received Him even upon Believing and repenting at the first. Evidence proves in the Word that He did not come until the laying on of hands in Samaria(Philip, Peter and, John Acts 8:14-17) Cornelius at Peter's preaching(Acts 10:44) and Paul in Ephesus (Acts 19:2-6). I believe much of the preaching today on the Holy Ghost is in error in both camps and do not fit to the Word of God. In many "charismatic" camps, they seek the "signs" more than the sanctification and sealing. In many non or anti charismatic camps, they deny the Glory and Witness of Christ Jesus contained in His manifestations as a witness to His Glory.

I "rode the fence" for a while on this for I saw the damage and falsehoods on both sides prevailing more than the Truth. But The Lord has taken me off "my fence" and narrowed the path in His Truth by His Word and The Holy Spirit. But He had to do this by my seeking deeper into Him. It comes no other way. I believe it was simpler in those days of Paul and Peter for there was no huge amounts of derisions and confusion with permeations of doctrines on Christianity then. satan loves to deceive and stop the Power of God moving in Jesus Christ and His Body. he does this by deceptions and fears. Some see the "deceptions" on one side (not looking at the Glory that doesn't deceive in some Manifestations) and fear of going the wrong way into that deception sets in with guarded mindset thereby deceiving and covering the eyes of the cautious as well.

But, this I know; Perfect Love (only found in Jesus) will prevail if we so seek and laying aside all fears and doubts allowing Him to break the strongholds within us, we will see His Glory, Receive His Holy Ghost and be far better equipped and empowered to do His Work, no matter what the Gift or Gifts He gives unto us.

[Arthur Durnan]

Glossolaliasts will find precious little support for "unknown" languages involving "divine mumbo-jumbo" in Holy Scripture. The very word "unknown" doesn't appear in the original, but charismatic folk continue to underscore it. That must tell you something. "Angelic" languages are in every single instance in the Bible known, understood, national, earthly languages of humankind. So please refrain from bringing angels into any discussion of languages unless willing to admit that they spoke in known dialects in each instance.

The very classic passage of Acts 2:8-11, which, in any such discussion, is always kindly left aside by Pentecostal-charismatic friends, states most conclusively that Pentecostal languages are indeed known, understood, national & earthly dialects of humankind, not "heavenly gibberish." Yea, "every man heard them speak IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE." And THAT'S the Pentecostal experience plumb and plain. Why shy from it? Plus of course, 'a sound from heaven as of a mighty rushing wind,' and 'cloven tongues like as of fire.' BOTH PRECEDED "speaking in languages" (Compare Acts 2:2,3 with Acts 2:4). Where, pray tell, are those other two essential Acts 2 occurences in each instance today? If not, how can one refer their personal experience to Pentecost, the major reference-point? There was vital SCRIPTURAL ORDER in Acts Chapter Two with respect to "initial physical evidence." Linguistic nonsense as portrayed in "heavenly mish-mash," and claimed as an exclusively Christian demonstration - in spite of involvement by non-Christian cults - leaves much to be desired. And methinks Isaiah 28:1-6 also contributes to the modern "tongues" element: back then drunken-type babblings (verses 9,10) led directly to the "tongues" that were to overtake the nation of Israel.

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com