Sabbath on saturday or sunday?

[whollybybill]

Oh and I find it curious that the change was made during the First Christian emporer named Constatine. They were crossing over from worshiping their sun God Zeus along with their astrology;The 12 months with the sun in the middle. It resembles the Last Dinner painting by Leonardo Da Vinci. So my point our planets were named after greek gods, the months in our year down to the days. Heck the stars are still named using the greek mythology. So Sunday is the first day of the week named after the their God because he was the god of the sky. So why move the holyday from Saturday to Sunday. The devil has one job and one job only: to deceive Zakar (Adam) and his seed. He will make evil seem fair seeming. The devil Nakhash and his seed tricked us once more into worshipping him and his image by not keeping and remembering the sabbath.

[arvy]

Oh and I find it curious that the change was made during the First Christian emporer named Constatine. They were crossing over from worshiping their sun God Zeus along with their astrology;The 12 months with the sun in the middle. It resembles the Last Dinner painting by Leonardo Da Vinci. So my point our planets were named after greek gods, the months in our year down to the days. Heck the stars are still named using the greek mythology. So Sunday is the first day of the week named after the their God because he was the god of the sky. So why move the holyday from Saturday to Sunday. The devil has one job and one job only: to deceive Zakar (Adam) and his seed. He will make evil seem fair seeming. The devil Nakhash and his seed tricked us once more into worshipping him and his image by not keeping and remembering the sabbath.

whollybybill, or (Holy Bible), arvy "ere.

For sound doctrine of the truth and hope for our eternal salvation. I Rest my case, upon the Inspired Scriptures only. However; I am also aware that the Bible, with regard for world events that were and are, to effect all Christendom, beginning from the areas immediately around the Mediteranian and the Aegean seas, and extending outward into our western Civilization, was first rooted in the religion, Judaism.

Obviously, biblically, and historically there is much we can not reveal relative to all the historical facts which will support your basic understanding of the whole issue around the "Sabbath /Sunday" Issue.

whollybybill: "Oh and I find it curious that the change was made during the First Christian emporer named Constatine."

Constantine was but the instrument that got fixed the issue to a document by making it and official decree in 325 AD. There had already been issues between Jews and Christians and Pagans over this earlier in history, probably beginning a little before John wrote thte revelations of Jesus Christ. THe greater part of the issue seemed to have been between the Jews and the Christians to start. The issue of itself became one of an Identification problem for Christians. Why because the first Believers in Christ of the first century were Sabbath observers. This tended to put them, by identification, among the persecuted Jews. If we check history (as undistorted by theologians) we will discover that the alteration of observance, from Seventh day to First day was one of incorporation into the practices of Paganism for the sake of preservation from persecution. the practice became more and more acceptable amid the developing leaders of Christendom (Bishops of the Greek and the Roman church as a whole until "tradition" began using the very scripture in an attempt to justify the "change of Times and Laws." and so it was forcast by Daniel in chapter 7:25"

What "times?" What day of the week has proclaimed in scripture for His personal Memorial as Creator of Heaven and Earth? What "Laws?" What "Laws" contain God's proclamation tto be the Creator of Heaven and Earth?" What Day did Jesus as Saviour declare Himself "Lord (having authority over) of?"

Any one with courage to discern the truth of this message need only to read the Catholic Catechism concerning the 4th commandment, and the book, "Great Documents of Western Civilization," by Milton Viorst, copyright 1965).

Remember. as a matter of Documentation, Constantine was but an instrument in that present time of bring prophecy into reality as histor: it is up to us as individuals to discover and to discern truth from fiction.

Sound Counsel from the penman of God, Paul:

1 Thess. 5:20-23 ...

[Guest DYChowmah]

Galatians 4:8-11

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

Havent the time to get to all the 1 liners WordSower posted. Lets look at this scripture which wordsower claims to be a scripture that says we do not have to keep Gods sabbath day.

GAL.4 [8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?[10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS.[11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Wordsower claims that the above scripture tells us gentiles we need not keep Gods sabbath day. Wordsower is not alone. The "many" have claimed the same thing. As all the other 1 liners have fallen. This 1 to shall fall. The observer of times.

DEUT.18 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

The observer of times. Hmmm. Maybe speakin of those who use horoscopes?

2 CHR.33 [3] For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.[4] Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.[5] And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: ALSO HE OBSERVED TIMES, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger

In any case, nothing to do away with Gods sabbath day. Seems to have something to do with the occult.

LEV.19 [26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, NOR OBSERVE TIMES.[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.[29] Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.[30] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

I guess this scripture says it all. You shall not observe times BUT you will keep my sabbaths. Yup! Another 1 liner has fallen to the scrutiny of the scriptures.

Edited August 24, 2007 by DYChowmah

[Guest DYChowmah]

Hello,

I've been reading through these comments and would like to respond to all...

First of all God did bless and sanctify a certain day, not just any of our choosing, but the seventh day, which God chose himself. Does any of you think that you can choose a better day? Maybe the seventh day may not seem convenient for you, but that is where faith comes in and there remains a special blessing for those whoe honor the Sabbath.

Some people say that we aren't required to keep the Sabbath...That is so rediculus....think about it...

We must work to earn a living and pay our bills and accomplish anything in our lives, but God specifically sanctified a special day when we can rest apart from our daily worries and work, so that we could focus our attention on him and what he has done. We can't honor the Sabbath everyday.

The Sabbath is a time for us to recharge and reflect on Gods creation....

yes, we can and should think on those things daily, but the Sabbath is a date with God when we surrender all other worries and focus on God for the whole day. We cannot do that everyday with all the stuff we must do.

He has given us all of our time here and only asks for one seventh back.

the Sabbath was not given to the Jews...It was given to mankind in the Garden of eden. Adam and eve honored the Sabbath. God instituted the Sabbath at creation....he rested the Seventh day and sanctified it.

Blessings,

Tom

AMEN

[Guest DYChowmah]

Col 2:16 Don't let anyone tell you what you must eat or drink. Don't let them say that you must celebrate the New Moon festival, the Sabbath, or any other festival.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

I guess you dont read any posts but your own.

Posts 126 128 and 218 actually show scriptures to interpret Col 2:16. You can believe the scriptures or believe your preacher man.

If you dont believe the scriptures from those 3 posts. Heres another set of scriptures you can choose to not believe on the same subject.

ISAIAH 1 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your new moons and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Bring no more vain oblations in the new moons and the sabbath. WHY? Because Jesus nailed these offerings (oblations) to the cross. The sabbath, the new moons, and holydays (feastdays) were not nailed to the cross nor were the 10 commandments.

Numbers 18 [8] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, BY AN ORDINANCE for ever.[9] This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: EVERY OBLATION of theirs, EVERY MEAT OFFERING of theirs, and EVERY SIN OFFERING of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.

Just wanted to show you this scripture to confirm that the oblations were the offerings by ordinance.

EZEK.45 [15] And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord GOD.[16] All the people of the land shall give THIS OBLATION for the prince in Israel.[17] And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and MEAT OFFERINGS, AND DRINK OFFERINGS, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Once again you can read that it was the (oblations) burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths. And it was the PRINCE OF PEACE who prepared the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

LUKE 22 [15] And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:[16]For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.[17] And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:[18] For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.[19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.[20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

The bread-meat offering-now Christ

The wine-drink offering-now Christ

The blood of animals-sin offering-THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

[wordsower]

Havent the time to get to all the 1 liners WordSower posted. Lets look at this scripture which wordsower claims to be a scripture that says we do not have to keep Gods sabbath day.

GAL.4 [8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?[10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS.[11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Wordsower claims that the above scripture tells us gentiles we need not keep Gods sabbath day. Wordsower is not alone. The "many" have claimed the same thing. As all the other 1 liners have fallen. This 1 to shall fall. The observer of times.

DEUT.18 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

The observer of times. Hmmm. Maybe speakin of those who use horoscopes?

2 CHR.33 [3] For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.[4] Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.[5] And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: ALSO HE OBSERVED TIMES, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger

In any case, nothing to do away with Gods sabbath day. Seems to have something to do with the occult.

LEV.19 [26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, NOR OBSERVE TIMES.[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.[29] Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.[30] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

I guess this scripture says it all. You shall not observe times BUT you will keep my sabbaths. Yup! Another 1 liner has fallen to the scrutiny of the scriptures.

Do you read your own posts? You post on here in such a spirit of haughtiness and arrogance. So sure you are above the intelligence of anyone else. So sure you are right. Pride comes before a fall, buddy, maybe you should take a couple of minutes to read my testimony which you can link at the bottom of my signature. I was Seventh day Adventist for 27 years........Oh, just read it, it wont kill you.

[wordsower]

QUOTE(wordsower @ Aug 23 2007, 07:45 PM)

OK, tyring to take it in the context that you present makes it even more confusing to me, because if we say that the Sabbath is important to God then it will be equally important not to leave our dwelling place from Fri sundown to Sat sundown, or not to build a fire or carry a burden or even really, go to church since that is not allowed in the law of the Sabbath.

And that comes from a christian theological interpretation...not necessarily a biblical one.

The Torah is/was the Constitution of Israel. The intent behind every decree comes from the Lord Himself and therefore is a glimpse into His character. He defines what is true and it is reflected in the "Bill of Rights" (Torah) for Israel.

The problem is that humans define righteousness as if it is the same thing as morality. Choosing our own way can be "moral" and yet unrighteous at the same time

Let me use an extreme hyperbole as an example of something that is clearly against His will;

Abortion has become morally acceptable today. Can someone have an abortion and find forgiveness in the Lord? OF COURSE THEY CAN!!! But does it make that act "righteous"? We all know the answer to that one.

So God gave Israel a Constitution to create a nation for Himself out of a few million Eygptian slaves. The Torah is addressed to Israel and those who would sojourn with them in the promised land but not even Israel could observe the law when they were taken into captivity to Babylon. So how could this EVER apply to gentiles in foreign lands?

Simple. This is exactly what Yeshua established and the Apostles furthered. It is the "spirit" of the Law that matters. Are christians keeping the spirit of the law by choosing one day in seven? Yes, they are....but no matter what Justin Martyr says, the Bible says they have chosen a day of their own will.

Nana can quote all the christian commentaries she wants but until the words of the bible agree it is meaningless human wisdom. I don't think anyone will be refused entry into His Kingdom for choosing to observe another day (unlike 7th day Adventist teachings which say Sunday is the mark of the beast) but that is exactly what western-cultural-christian-theology has done.

When I first began studying the roots of how this happened, I was an atheist trying to prove that christians were idiots. I found lots of ammunition that I won't use today...but the change of the Sabbath came about because of racist attitudes of the Roman world that were reflected within gentiles who started a separate religious institution....and called it "church"

While I'm at it...there is no evidence in the Bible that "the Lord's Day" is Sunday either. It is only another theological device of christian interpretation.

QUOTE

I'm not saying, do what you want, need no bible, whatever sarcasm you are suggesting, I'm saying everyday should be as holy as the next and we should't differentiate in any of them.

I'm not trying to pick on you specifically but your post presented the best opportunity to make my (sarcastic) point. Surely something in the Bible is meant for us to heed, right? It is inconsistant to say God's Word is true...except where He speaks about the Sabbath.

I believe everyday is holy to the Lord also....yet He made a distinction among the days for some reason. Shall I follow a religious institution, a theology, a cultural morality, or even my own conviction where it conflicts with His stated Word?

There doesn't appear to be any heavenly consequence for it...so why not? That appears to be the "norm" of people....secular or christian.

If the spirit of the law is kept, I don't think there is a serious problem...but it has to be based on something truthful (letter of the law) or it is a religious fabrication.

The truth is that God gave Israel the Sabbath and for good reason. Change it if you wish; but don't say it doesn't exist or matter.

See, now we are reasoning together instead of attacking eachother.

Let me say 1st, that I know there are alot of "christians" who want to just get by on grace, I'm not subscribed to that group. It is my sincere desire to please God. That being said; your first point: (and I wish I had so much time to devote to this because I really do feel that it is really important and so misunderstood by both camps, or I should say all three camps, the Sabbattarians, the Sunday whatevers and the everyday alikers.

1st point

And that comes from a christian theological interpretation...not necessarily a biblical one.

The Torah is/was the Constitution of Israel. The intent behind every decree comes from the Lord Himself and therefore is a glimpse into His character. He defines what is true and it is reflected in the "Bill of Rights" (Torah) for Israel.

The problem is that humans define righteousness as if it is the same thing as morality. Choosing our own way can be "moral" and yet unrighteous at the same time

Morality has nothing to do with righteousness. A person could live a very moral life and land in hell.

point 2

Let me use an extreme hyperbole as an example of something that is clearly against His will;

Abortion has become morally acceptable today. Can someone have an abortion and find forgiveness in the Lord? OF COURSE THEY CAN!!! But does it make that act "righteous"? We all know the answer to that one.

Where is that coming from? "Love God - love your neighbor" The commandment that encompasses the entire law--is not observed my murdering children.

point 3

So God gave Israel a Constitution to create a nation for Himself out of a few million Eygptian slaves. The Torah is addressed to Israel and those who would sojourn with them in the promised land but not even Israel could observe the law when they were taken into captivity to Babylon. So how could this EVER apply to gentiles in foreign lands?

Simple. This is exactly what Yeshua established and the Apostles furthered. It is the "spirit" of the Law that matters. Are christians keeping the spirit of the law by choosing one day in seven? Yes, they are....but no matter what Justin Martyr says, the Bible says they have chosen a day of their own will.

Nana can quote all the christian commentaries she wants but until the words of the bible agree it is meaningless human wisdom. I don't think anyone will be refused entry into His Kingdom for choosing to observe another day (unlike 7th day Adventist teachings which say Sunday is the mark of the beast) but that is exactly what western-cultural-christian-theology has done.

When I first began studying the roots of how this happened, I was an atheist trying to prove that christians were idiots. I found lots of ammunition that I won't use today...but the change of the Sabbath came about because of racist attitudes of the Roman world that were reflected within gentiles who started a separate religious institution....and called it "church"

that's the extreme. I agree totally that many and grevious are the errors of the RCC and whoever wants to place anyone under a law of "sunday" worship---or Friday for that matter which will be the Muslim sabbath. I will be the first to scream that Sunday is not the Sabbath. I don't observe it any differently from any other day, I truly go to church 3 or 4 times a week and Monday night is just as holy as Sunday is to me. God is there on Mondays too.

I'm not sure it's a problem until it causes some here to look down their nose and feel a superiority for their position. That was the problem with the Pharisees and it is still very evident in those that try to adhere to the law today.

In the OT (Micah I think) God said the only thing He ever intended was for us to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with Him, we couldn't do any of that without the Holy Spirit and that is the purpose of the law, to point us to Christ who left us a Helper.

My neck hurts, gotta go.

[Vickilynn]

In the OT (Micah I think) God said the only thing He ever intended was for us to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with Him, we couldn't do any of that without the Holy Spirit and that is the purpose of the law, to point us to Christ who left us a Helper.

Shalom,

It's my life verse.

Micah 6:8

8 He has told you, O man, what is good;

and what does the LORD require of you

but to do justice, and to love kindness,

and to walk humbly with your God?

My neck hurts, gotta go.

I pray the L-rd touches your neck.

[Guest yod]

Point #1 -

NO ONE is allowed to pick on my friend, Wordsower. She isn't coming at this with any malice but she has been hurt by legalists so it is a very sensitive subject for her. Let's agree in love to disagree if we must but we are all brothers and sister here, ok?

See, now we are reasoning together instead of attacking each other.

I hope you didn't see my sarcasm as a personal attack. It was more of "pointed" joke and I responded to your post particularly because I thought you would understand that.

Morality has nothing to do with righteousness. A person could live a very moral life and land in hell.

I knew you would agree but there are many who don't recognize the difference so it needed to be stated.

Let me use an extreme hyperbole as an example of something that is clearly against His will;

Where is that coming from? "Love God - love your neighbor" The commandment that encompasses the entire law--is not observed my murdering children.

I did say it was an extreme hyperbole! The point is that all sin has been forgiven. Even if someone in this discussion thinks it is sin to choose either Saturday or Sunday as go-to-church-day, that is all covered by the blood. I hoped to make the point that there is no condemnation either way...but does that make it "right" as in "correct"?

I don't think so...

that's the extreme. I agree totally that many and grevious are the errors of the RCC and whoever wants to place anyone under a law of "sunday" worship---or Friday for that matter which will be the Muslim sabbath. I will be the first to scream that Sunday is not the Sabbath. I don't observe it any differently from any other day, I truly go to church 3 or 4 times a week and Monday night is just as holy as Sunday is to me. God is there on Mondays too.

I have a different perspective on how it came about.

In the original faith community (the synagogue of Jerusalem) they would never have taken a journey on the Sabbath and most gentiles lived some distance away. Even in the greek world, jews usually had a neighborhood that was separate from the gentiles.

So, they would have observed the Sabbath as always, then when it ended at evening (Saturday evening begins the first day of the week on the hebrew calendar. See Acts 20:7) they would travel to join with the gentile converts for a havdala time (a traditional time of separating the Sabbath from the weekdays)

Over time, this is how the first day of the week could have become when the "one new man" met for fellowship and become an additional time of worship for the jewish believers. Not necessarily replacing Sabbath but becoming a weekly fixed time in addition to the Sabbath. Another example was when Paul said he would come around on the first day of the week to receive the collection for the "poor saints of Jerusalem" (1Corinthians 16:2)

No devout jew would ever think of traveling AND collecting money on the Sabbath!!

Then, late in the 1st Century the "Ficus Judaicus" (tax on jews) would have defined gentiles as jews if they met on the Sabbath so they avoided paying this tax by meeting on Sundays instead; since go-to-church-day has NOTHING to do with Sabbath anyway.

At the same time there were many people who hated the jews (outside of the church) influencing a Roman society that was tired of putting down rebellions in Israel. The book of Romans provides lots of evidence that there was also a racial component causing problems between jews and gentiles in the church there too....so this bigotry must have continued and grown larger.

So I don't think Constantine deserves all the blame. He appeared in history at the culmination of what had already become a totally gentile institution and simply severed the final strands of it's hebraic roots. The Greek spirit had taken over...

In other words, Constantine simply codified what was already in place when he arrived. This is a brief summary of what I've come to understand as I study this subject for the last 17 years.

God said the only thing He ever intended was for us to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with Him, we couldn't do any of that without the Holy Spirit and that is the purpose of the law, to point us to Christ who left us a Helper.

yes and amen...that is the spirit of the law.

Would it be unreasonable to interpret the "walk humbly" part as being obedient to His Word over what we might otherwise want to do? Not in a controlling/manipulative/legalistic/religious sense (which would be "self" righteousness) but with the faith of a child?

[damo1]

from damo1

god created the world in seven days he rested on sunday as the sabath day is sunday it is meant for rest and this is the way i see it as i work 6 days a week and rest on a sunday

from damo1