John 14 and the New Jerusalem

[Ovedya]

In keeping with the understnding of words, I happen to believe that "house" also denotes "kingdom, realm". It fits with Jesus' words.

John 14:2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

A, so "house" can mean "kingdom, realm," but "mansions" has to mean "mansions."

?

[Openly Curious]

Again, please refer both to my previous responses regarding John 14 and the references I provided for support and edification. The traditional teaching that Jesus ascended into heaven to build individual "mansions" for the believers to dwell in, is false. It is entirely man-made.

OC-quote

Jesus teaches us in John chapter 14 that He Himself was going to leave this world to prepare us a place. It is my belief that Jesus Himself did not leave this earth to descend into heaven in order to build us personal mansions. Instead Jesus had to go away in order to sprinkle His own blood on the mercy seat in the heavenly tabernacle thus "preparing a way for us to have a place in heaven" within the Father's house as the city is built by God Himself and not Christ. Christ only made and prepared us a way through His own blood that was shed on the cross for to make atonement for us. So in light of what I have said it is a man made doctrine that Jesus ascended into heaven in order to build us individual mansions. So I agree in light of what I have thus said and stated here with you.

But heaven will be a place where their is no more sorrow, pain, tears, suffering, crying, no more death, a place that will be emencely enjoyed for all eternity by the saints of God.

I agree with your very Biblical assertion of the qualities of the millenial kingdom.

OC-quote

I am not only speaking of the 1000 years of the millenial reign on earth but for all eternity there will be no more pain, sorrow, death, sickness, tears, crying for all eternity. If you do not believe in this please explain the qualities of both your view of "heaven" and the "New Jerusalem" and regarding the "new heavens" and "new earth" so there will be no confusion on your personal views? And where is your scriptural references that shows we will "NOT" enjoy our eternal home emencly?

You keep referring everything to material riches and earthly wealth that is what you think is over there to wonder at. I think this is your personal view of things and not the intent of the article that was given. The riches over there will not be earthly but eternal riches and treasures that God has prepared for us. As I stated before naked we came into this world and naked we shall go out taking nothing with us. We are told to lay up our treasures over their for where your treasure is their will your heart be also.

I disagree. To "lay up treasures" in the heavens is not to lay up literal wealth, but spiritual provisions which are the result of living and working according to the divine life (Matt. 6:20; 19:21; Acts 2:45; 4:34-35; 11:29; Rom. 15:26; Phil. 4:16-17).

OC-quote

Yes as I have said in the above quote re-read it. I said naked we came in this world and naked we shall go out taking "nothing" of this world with us. I never said that the treasures we are to lay up are "literal wealth" as you are describing but treasures of another kind eternal where moth and rust and thieves cannot break in and steal and destroy them. These treasures are not spiritual provisions of any kind Christ is my provision. If you think our godly living on this earth gives us spirtual provisions and are indeed our treasures please explain in more detail?

OC

[Floatingaxe]

In keeping with the understnding of words, I happen to believe that "house" also denotes "kingdom, realm". It fits with Jesus' words.

John 14:2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

A, so "house" can mean "kingdom, realm," but "mansions" has to mean "mansions."

?

God's HOUSE is limitless...His universe is His realm, His house. A mansion is also a huge house! Why limit God? Jesus said it, and so it means just as He says. Who in one's right mind would be thinking literally, "house" with brick and mortar and limiting its size by one's puny human comprehension?! We will rule and reign with Christ forever and His house is our home, wherever and however it is! Please--this is just plain silliness! (spiritually discerned, of course! )

When Jesus says something, try to expand your mind to accept it, rather than dismissing it in your own way, disguising it as acceptance.

[traveller]

I have always loved The Pilgrim's Progress' (by John Bunyon) description of apporaching the city of Heaven. It is a story of one called Christian and his dream ofthe journey of life, and at the end, death. It is beautiful storytelling and poetry, yet it gives us a glimpse, a possibility, a look through a glass darkly. Here is a brief part of it as Christian reached the gates of the city.

Now, while they were thus drawing towards the gate, behold a company of the heavenly host came out to meet them; to whom it was said, by the other two Shining Ones, "These are the men that have loved our Lord when they were in the world, and that have left all for his holy Name; and he hath sent us to fetch them, and we have brought them thus far on their desired journey, that they may go in and look their Redeemer in the face with joy." Then the heavenly host gave a great shout, saying, "Blessed are they that are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb".

"And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God." Revelation 19:9

There came out also at this time, to meet them, several of the King's trumpeters, clothed in white and shining raiment; who, with melodious noises, and loud, made even the heavens to echo with their sound. These trumpeters saluted CHRISTIAN and his fellow with ten thousand welcomes, from the world: and this they did with shouting and sound of trumpet.

This done, they compassed them round on every side: some went before, some behind, and some on the right hand, some on the left (as 'twere to guide them through the upper regions); continually sounding as they went, with melodious noise, in notes on high; so that the very sight was, to them that could behold it, as if heaven itself was come down to meet them. Thus, therefore, they walked on together; and as they walked, ever and anon these trumpeters, even, with joyful sound, would, by mixing their music with looks and gestures, still signify to CHRISTIAN and his brother how welcome they were into their company, and with what gladness they came to meet them. And now were these two men, as 't were, in heaven, before they came at it; being swallowed up with the sight of angels, and with hearing of their melodious notes. Here also they had the City itself in view; and they thought they heard all the bells therein to ring, to welcome them thereto; but, above all, the warm and joyful thoughts that they had about their own dwelling there, with such company, and that for ever and ever. Oh, by what tongue or pen can their glorious joy be expressed! And thus they came up to the gate.

Now when they were come up to the gate, there was written over it, in letters of gold, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter in through the gates into the City".

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14

Then I saw in my dream, that the shining men bid them call at the gate, the which when they did, some from above looked over the gate: to wit, Enoch, Moses, and Elijah; to whom it was said, "These pilgrims are come from the city of Destruction, for the love that they bear to the King of this place." And then the pilgrims gave in unto them each man his certificate, which they had received in the beginning; those, therefore were carried in to the King, who, when he had read them, said "Where are the men?" To whom it was answered, "They are standing without the gate." The King then commanded to open the gate, "That the righteous nation," said he, "that keeps truth, may enter in".

"Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in." Isaiah 26:2

Now I saw in my dream, that these two men went in at the gate; and lo, as they entered, they were transfigured; and they had raiment put on that shone like gold. There were also those that met them with harps and crowns, and gave them to them; the harps to praise withal, and the crowns in token of honour. Then I heard in my dream, that all the bells in the City rang again for joy; and that it was said unto them, "Enter ye into the joy of your Lord." I also heard the men themselves, that they sang with a loud voice, saying, "Blessing, honour, glory, and power, be to him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever".

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13, 14

Now, just as the gates were opened to let in the men, I looked in after them: and behold, the City shone like the sun: the streets also were paved with gold; and in them walked many men, with crowns on their heads, palms in their hands, and golden harps to sing praises withal.

There were also of them that had wings; and they answered one another without intermission, saying, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord!" And after that they shut up the gates, which when I had seen, I wished myself among them.

I got this from this source.

Yes, the Pilgrim's Progress is literature, a fictional account. Yet, how are we to know exactly how it will be since eye hath not seen? What we have are the words that were given to us and what we have from them is interpretation. How can we explain something that is not within our imagination? How can we explain that which we have not seen? How can the blind explain color?

There is a CD called City of Gold that was done based on the Pilgrim's Progress. In it there is a poem where a man is almost grieving leaving this world, this earth, because as he so beautifully words it, "it is all I know." And that part is very correct - this is all we know.

The Lord so beautifully described heaven for us, in a way we can understand. Yet, we have no real idea of it's majesty because seated in the middle is the Father. WE cannot imagine the glory, the awesomeness, the profound amazement of being in His presence. Yet, we shall kneel before Him.

We have to trust that however heaven is laid out, whoever is correct n their interpretation of it, that our Lord is faithful and just and we will be with Him forever in a place that HE prepared for us. Imagine that - a place that HE PREPARED FOR US.

We should rejoice in that and not debate the way the streets are built, just know that they ARE being built.

My opinion, anyways.

[Pilgrim7]

What Jesus was trying to tell us is that there is plenty or room in heaven. We can speculate on what it will be like, but no one will be excluded because there isn't enough room.

As for the 'New Jerusalem', it comes down out of heaven, where Jesus has been preparing it since He returned after the t'housand years'. This is when 'Israel', all the saved, Jew and Gentile, inherit the promised land and rule with Jesus forever, not just for a 'thousnad years'. It is adorned 'as a bride', for the Saints inhabit it. It is a real city, full of real people.

Being a pillar of God's temple is used in the sense of one being a 'pillar' in their community. It doesn't mean that there is no community, as it doesn't mean that they are a litteral pillar either.

There is a physical Heaven, a physical kingdom, a physical city, a physical people, and yes they are also spiritual people, spiritual temples, a spiritual kingdom and spiritual bride. The physical is made for the Spiritual as a dwelling place.

God Bless,

Dennis

[Floatingaxe]

What Jesus was trying to tell us is that there is plenty or room in heaven. We can speculate on what it will be like, but no one will be excluded because there isn't enough room.

As for the 'New Jerusalem', it comes down out of heaven, where Jesus has been preparing it since He returned after the t'housand years'. This is when 'Israel', all the saved, Jew and Gentile, inherit the promised land and rule with Jesus forever, not just for a 'thousnad years'. It is adorned 'as a bride', for the Saints inhabit it. It is a real city, full of real people.

Being a pillar of God's temple is used in the sense of one being a 'pillar' in their community. It doesn't mean that there is no community, as it doesn't mean that they are a litteral pillar either.

There is a physical Heaven, a physical kingdom, a physical city, a physical people, and yes they are also spiritual people, spiritual temples, a spiritual kingdom and spiritual bride. The physical is made for the Spiritual as a dwelling place.

God Bless,

Dennis

Once again:

[Metin]

What Jesus was trying to tell us is that there is plenty or room in heaven. We can speculate on what it will be like, but no one will be excluded because there isn't enough room.

As for the 'New Jerusalem', it comes down out of heaven, where Jesus has been preparing it since He returned after the t'housand years'. This is when 'Israel', all the saved, Jew and Gentile, inherit the promised land and rule with Jesus forever, not just for a 'thousnad years'. It is adorned 'as a bride', for the Saints inhabit it. It is a real city, full of real people.

Being a pillar of God's temple is used in the sense of one being a 'pillar' in their community. It doesn't mean that there is no community, as it doesn't mean that they are a litteral pillar either.

There is a physical Heaven, a physical kingdom, a physical city, a physical people, and yes they are also spiritual people, spiritual temples, a spiritual kingdom and spiritual bride. The physical is made for the Spiritual as a dwelling place.

God Bless,

Dennis

edit: upon re-reading i removed one thumbs up emote.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Metin

[Ovedya]

In keeping with the understnding of words, I happen to believe that "house" also denotes "kingdom, realm". It fits with Jesus' words.

John 14:2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

A, so "house" can mean "kingdom, realm," but "mansions" has to mean "mansions."

?

God's HOUSE is limitless...His universe is His realm, His house. A mansion is also a huge house! Why limit God? Jesus said it, and so it means just as He says. Who in one's right mind would be thinking literally, "house" with brick and mortar and limiting its size by one's puny human comprehension?! We will rule and reign with Christ forever and His house is our home, wherever and however it is! Please--this is just plain silliness! (spiritually discerned, of course! )

When Jesus says something, try to expand your mind to accept it, rather than dismissing it in your own way, disguising it as acceptance.

Yes. Why limit God? If Jesus death and resurrection was His going to prepare a place for us in the Father, so that all who believe into Him could be the mutual abodes (That is, God in man, man in God) in the Father's house, why resort to an interpretation that is solely based in the earthly realm?

[Ovedya]

I really don't see why this particular topic has become such a heated debate. It came out of a thread dealing with pets going to heaven, one Ovedya didn't seem to think was worth debating, so he starts this off shoot, that personally I don't find all that important.

I believe that Jesus did go away to prepare us a mansion (room) in the Father's house. I agree with O.C. when she said the word mansion was used to show the splendor of the room. In other words, it is not just some little room like you would stay in at a motel. It is like a mansion, but within the Father's house. I also believe there are literal streets of gold and gates of pearl in heaven. Why? Because scripture says there is.

As for people coming up with carnal thoughts about what may be there, so what? What if someone believes they will play golf in heaven? Personally, I don't believe that is the case, anymore than I believe there will be baseball, football, hockey, bowling, etc. in heaven. Regardless, what does it really matter? When we get there and find out everything is not the way we pictured it, I don't think anyone will be dissapointed. Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard the things God has prepared for us in glory.

Do we sometimes become carnal minded when it comes to what will be in heaven? Do we sometimes picture having our favorite food at the marriage supper of the Lamb, or as one song said, attending this huge gospel singing on heaven's lawn? Of course people do, but what is the real harm? Whether things are the way I picture them or not, I just know I want to go there. If my dwelling is in a little cabin in the corner of glory, or in a mansion more splended than a castle down here, I know it will be wonderful, especially being in the presence of the Lord for eternity.

So what if believers are caused to carnal thoughts by a misinterpretation of God's word? So what if Christians are carnal minded when it comes to heaven?

[Floatingaxe]

In keeping with the understnding of words, I happen to believe that "house" also denotes "kingdom, realm". It fits with Jesus' words.

John 14:2

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

A, so "house" can mean "kingdom, realm," but "mansions" has to mean "mansions."

?

God's HOUSE is limitless...His universe is His realm, His house. A mansion is also a huge house! Why limit God? Jesus said it, and so it means just as He says. Who in one's right mind would be thinking literally, "house" with brick and mortar and limiting its size by one's puny human comprehension?! We will rule and reign with Christ forever and His house is our home, wherever and however it is! Please--this is just plain silliness! (spiritually discerned, of course! )

When Jesus says something, try to expand your mind to accept it, rather than dismissing it in your own way, disguising it as acceptance.

Yes. Why limit God? If Jesus death and resurrection was His going to prepare a place for us in the Father, so that all who believe into Him could be the mutual abodes (That is, God in man, man in God) in the Father's house, why resort to an interpretation that is solely based in the earthly realm?

It is Jesus Himself who used such language! Why not take Him at His word? Why change it and make it say something He does not say? He isn't always figurative in His speech. It is so much more freeing to relax and listen to His words and take them the way He delivered them.