Who Created God?

[GeneV]

When He says I Am

[cjrose]

When He says I Am

[cjrose]

Lot of words... not much said. The argument stands - you as a Christian are violating Ockhams' Razor because you add an unnecessary entity. You are also still making the positive assertion (God exists) - the burden of proof is on you.

Well yes, I do tend to write a lot but I also can see an insult right before my eyes as well. You say not much said but some of those words I cited and were taken from a series of booklets on different types of thinking. I attempted at an effort and as expected, you are one that falls into the category in your disbelief who evades the question put to you where I tried to explain to you that mans conclusions are not proof.

So far all you have said is nothing in very few words. You are the one asking for proof and requiring us to not use the one tool that offers proof and yet you are here seeking the proof we already know and believe while you trust in Ockhams' Razor which is nothing but theory, hypothesis, deduction, selecting favorites, and so on. Man is so limited and Razor is dellusional at best.

If you cannot offer anything else in your view of proof that God doesn't exist, we have come to a stalemate. I will give 101% to anyone who is seriously seeking and interacting but so far you seem to be interacting with yourself ignoring others.

God exists. I am evidence, I am your proof and so are many members of this Worthy family. Why not go and read some personal testimonies of our members as the proof is there in their transformation which is something man does not have the ability to accomplish and Razor was just another philospher, scientist, philanthrapist, whatever. These thinkers should start thinking about Truth in Gods Word. Analyze that.

[tdrehfal]

Its very mindboggling to think about this. God created everything, even time. But when did God become God, or where does He dwell? He is outside of time, so what where IS He exactly? Its really weird to think about this, I've always wondered if we will be able to ask Him these questions....

When you listen to a song, where exactly is the song. Not the waves transmitting the song, nor the particles in the air that are affected by the waves

but the song itself. Where is the song? The song exists. Where is it? The words in this sentence. Where are they? The words themselves, not the

pixels on your screen as you read this. You can then speak these words to someone else. They still exist. They can write them down. They still

exist. None of the medium are really the words, the words are simply the words. I kind of equate this sort of thinking with the 'where is God'

question. It is mindboggling.

[tdrehfal]

Time is created by God. God does not conform to time. Time is useful to man, but God exists and operates independent of it.

Ya, I know. It's weird because since we are 3 dimensional creatures, we cannot look at time. We can only live in it. So since God is outside of time, this means that he can look at time. Kind of like how we look at a book. I like to put it this way:

Lets say I'm writing a book about Joe. In the first chapter I write down that Joe eats a hamburger. Well I finish the book, and I'm reading chapter 20. In chapter 20, Joe is dancing on a roof. Well at any point in time, I can go back and observe Joe eating a hamburger, but at the same time, still dance on a roof. The book is like time. We are characters of the book, like joe, and can only eat the hamburger, but we cannot observe ourselves while we presently eat the hamburger, and dance on the roof at the same time. So I see time as being God's book. He can go and look at any point in the book at any time. He isn't past or future, he is only present. He can't see the future, he is in the future. He can't see the past, he's only in the past. Do you kind of see what I'm saying? We can observe Joe at any point in the book(aka his life) at any time. But Joe can only live in a certain time, and when we get done writing his book, he dies. He doesn't exist in this presence of time anymore. The same goes for us. And this brings another question to mind. When we die and go to Heaven, will we be able to observe time in this manner, like a book? Will we be outside of time? Very interesting....

Cool!

[apothanein kerdos]

If it is to be argued that God is uncaused and infinite, then it could be just as easily argued that the universe is so. The argument that everything must have a cause, and therefore there must be a first cause (i.e. Yahweh) consequently crumbles.

Actually you can't. The universe is made via naturalistic means, that is, metaphysically it must have a beginning due to entropy, rate of expansion, etc. Very few scientists accept an eternal universe, save the late Carl Sagan.

From a theistic point of view, Ockham's Razor doesn't necessarily apply. For instance, under naturalism we have matter from non-matter, which would require a vast leap of faith to explain this. Under a theistic point of view, specifically the Christian one, the most plausible explanation is there was/is a Being that was outside the physical laws (thus outside of naturalistic explanations or logic) that could act as an "unmoved mover." Also, Ockham's Razor is not infallible and is subject to problems...so using it as the infallible tool of measurement when dealing with the metaphysics of the universe really doesn't work.

[Joshua-777]

This is somthing really trippy to think about. God created time, and gave us time, but is not limited to time. kingdom theology. Very interesting to think about. More trippy stuff?

Fellow brothers and sisters, we'll all meet up in heaven at the same non-time, because eternity has no basis on time, it's forever. God is the begining middle and end all at once.

Peace and blessings in Christ!

[hupo]

Lot of words... not much said. The argument stands - you as a Christian are violating Ockhams' Razor because you add an unnecessary entity. You are also still making the positive assertion (God exists) - the burden of proof is on you.

The burden of proof only stands in the realm of logical science.

You may not accept this but for me God exists and I can't prove it!!

This is where Faith comes in. I don't need proof.

Is there any scientific logic in Faith?

[hupo]

In his book "A new model of the universe" The scientific phylosopher Ospensky talks of the dimentions of our reality.

He starts with the 1, 2 and 3 dimensions we know. Goes on to the 4th dimention (time) and then goes onto quite an amazing theory of multiple dimensions we cannot as-of-yet comprehend. Without going into details I would sum up his phylosophy as a limit to what our minds can comprehend. We can develope and understand 4, 5 and even 6 dimensions but there is a limit. God is beyond the limits of time and space , and of our understanding.........

This topic is unanswerable as far as I'm concerned. It is beyond us.

Great topic for mental and spiritual acrobatics

Thanks

[MorningGlory]

If you can explain the origin and development of the universe without adding in the extra entity of a supernatural power, then Ockham's Razor would dictate taking the naturalistic answer.

This goes full circle back to the fact that something cannot arise from nothing. Isn't falling back on Ockham's Razor kind of ...... well, cliche?