IF?

[tsth]

Before, my security was in a doctrine--the doctrine of eternal security.

Now my security is in Jesus Christ.

Wonderfully put, I can relate. During the first part, I was continually doubting.......of course I was.........I had not fully come to Christ, it was verbal, but not in total surrender.

My husband said he heard something he thought Billy Graham once said:

"Some people have had just enough Christianity, that they think they have arrived, and therefore are now almost innoculated/immune to receiving the WHOLE TRUTH, and thereby submitting fully to Christ."

(It was something along those lines. I have experienced that in witnessing to some who proclaim to have been saved as a child and yet to this day, you'd never know it. Their lives have never changed, they do not submit to Christ, and pretty much squirm like a worm on hot concrete when His Name is mentioned. They cannot even speak His Name easily! Yet they claim they are Christian?)

John MacArthur stated that our salvation is not based on a prayer we prayed x-number of years ago, it is about our standing TODAY, RIGHT NOW!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest shiloh357]

What I see as interesting is the all of the assumed "euphemisms" for salvation. One example: abiding in His love is assumed by some on this thread to mean "being saved." Abiding in his love and being saved are not the same thing. Sin will cause us to fall out of fellowhsip with God. God does not "unjustify us." If sin causes us to lose our salvation, how many sins does it take? How long will God compromise His holiness before he kicks you out of the family? What exactly constitutes living in sin? One sin? two sins? two days of sinning? A month? A year? Where is the line drawn?

[endure4salvation]

What I see as interesting is the all of the assumed "euphemisms" for salvation. One example: abiding in His love is assumed by some on this thread to mean "being saved." Abiding in his love and being saved are not the same thing. Sin will cause us to fall out of fellowhsip with God. God does not "unjustify us." If sin causes us to lose our salvation, how many sins does it take? How long will God compromise His holiness before he kicks you out of the family? What exactly constitutes living in sin? One sin? two sins? two days of sinning? A month? A year? Where is the line drawn?

One can turn the table back your way, shiloh and ask you the following questions.

How many times has the securist said that anybody that lives the Christian life for a while and then turns back to live like the world was 'never saved to begin with'?

How many times?

Well, more than I can count.

So the logical question to ask is:

How long does one have to live like a Christian before they prove that their past conversion experience was a real one?

One week?

One month?

One year?

Five years?

Ten years?

Or for their entire life?

So if we take your intreptation and logic, one must always doubt their previous conversion experience because they never know if they were 'truly saved to begin with'.

Also, it is not God who unjustifies us. Do a search on justification and you will see over and over that we are justified by faith.

And there are many examples of people who have abandoned their faith. Where there is no more faith, there can be no more justification.

Also, it is not sin that causes us to 'lose' our salvation (because we can't 'lose' our salvation). It is the abandonment of faith.

[endure4salvation]

Oh, there is one more thing that will cause a saved person to go to the lake of fire:

THE MARK OF THE BEAST

Explain to me this passage in light of eternal security doctrine:

Revelation 14:9-14

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark...he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of His wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name. This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the LORD from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

A warning to saints (Christians) that if they receive the mark of the beast, they will end up in the lake of fire. Where is the unconditional security in this passage? :x:

[Guest shiloh357]

What I see as interesting is the all of the assumed "euphemisms" for salvation. One example:  abiding in His love is assumed by some on this thread to mean "being saved."  Abiding in his love and being saved are not the same thing.  Sin will cause us to fall out of fellowhsip with God.  God does not "unjustify us."  If sin causes us to lose our salvation, how many sins does it take?  How long will God compromise His holiness before he kicks you out of the family?  What exactly constitutes living in sin?  One sin? two sins?  two days of sinning? A month? A year?  Where is the line drawn?

One can turn the table back your way, shiloh and ask you the following questions.

How many times has the securist said that anybody that lives the Christian life for a while and then turns back to live like the world was 'never saved to begin with'?

How many times?

Well, more than I can count.

So the logical question to ask is:

How long does one have to live like a Christian before they prove that their past conversion experience was a real one?

One week?

One month?

One year?

Five years?

Ten years?

Or for their entire life?

How long does one have to live like a Christian before they prove that their past conversion experience was a real one?

Also, it is not God who unjustifies us. Do a search on justification and you will see over and over that we are justified by faith.

And there are many examples of people who have abandoned their faith. Where there is no more faith, there can be no more justification.

Also, it is not sin that causes us to 'lose' our salvation (because we can't 'lose' our salvation). It is the abandonment of faith.

How many times has the securist said that anybody that lives the Christian life for a while and then turns back to live like the world was 'never saved to begin with'?

It seems one thing that people tend to forget about salvation is that it requires an inward transformation. A true Christian does not just up and decide one day to walk away from His faith. John though has this to say about the issue you raise:

1 John 2:19

    They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.

Here John is talking about those who professed Christ at first evidentally, but did not remain in the fold. He says that they would have not left if they had really been genuine.

How long does one have to live like a Christian before they prove that their past conversion experience was a real one?

A true Christian does not have to "prove" anything. His actions will be a natural product of who he/she is in Christ.

So if we take your intreptation and logic, one must always doubt their previous conversion experience because they never know if they were 'truly saved to begin with'.

No, from my interpretation and logic, a true Christian not only has the witness of the Holy Spirit in their heart, but also has the Word of God which says that eternal life is present possesion Please read 1 John 5:11-13 and John 5:24. These two Scriptures tell me that eternal life is mine today, and therefore I do not have to doubt anything. Everyone KNOWS if they are truly saved or not. You know if you do or do not have eternal life.

Also, it is not God who unjustifies us.  Do a search on justification and you will see over and over that we are justified by faith.

I agree.

And there are many examples of people who have abandoned their faith.  Where there is no more faith, there can be no more justification.  And there are many examples of people who have abandoned their faith.  Where there is no more faith, there can be no more justification.

Also, it is not sin that causes us to 'lose' our salvation (because we can't 'lose' our salvation).  It is the abandonment of faith. 

Now you are talking about apostasy. I again refer you 1 John 2: 19 The only "faith" that is abandoned is "mental assent."

[Guest Teri]

Endure that is it exactly. When I was younger and I'll say like you before I was truly born again I had read scripture, went to church, even took theology in college. I always believed in the existence of God and never questioned it. For a time I completely walked away from all of it and came back only after my life was really horrible. And one wonderful night at a women's meeting with everyone babbling about all the stuff going on in their lives and all their problems an ancient looking woman stood up in the room. She said listen to all of you yaddling like you know something and trying to figure out this and that, but the one thing none of you get is that God wants your obedience first and foremost. I didn't hear anything else anyone said because that hit home with such force and truth that I could think of nothing else.

I came home that night and felt overwhelming despair, and went to my knees and fumbled through some prayer which was just basically calling out to God. It was there I was born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. I went on a search through the scriptures to find out what this obedience entailed, and my thirst is still there, I'm still discovering after several years. I made a commitment to God back there that I would no longer compromise in my walk with Him and my whole life has turned around.

I have very often wondered about this with some who say they are christians. The only explanation I have been able to come up with to this point is that they are living in a place of information rather than relationship with their Creator. But here's the thing, why is it that I heard the truth in that woman's words that night when others didn't? I tried to talk to several of the women after that and they didn't get it, in fact some thought the elderly woman was being arrogant. I always look back to that time of my life and really have to laugh at myself. I was really quite ignorant and arrogant in my thinking. I imagine to that elderly lady we all did sound like a bunch of old hens quite content in our own wisdom.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest shiloh357]

It seems that some on this thread are starting question others' salvation. This is what what happens when we start basing our salvation on what we think we have to do in order to stay saved. Pretty soon, we start to look at others who do not do it our way, and wonder about whether they are saved. I see that bordering judgementalism, and legalism.

[tsth]

Endure that is it exactly. When I was younger and I'll say like you before I was truly born again I had read scripture, went to church, even took theology in college. I always believed in the existence of God and never questioned it. For a time I completely walked away from all of it and came back only after my life was really horrible. And one wonderful night at a women's meeting with everyone babbling about all the stuff going on in their lives and all their problems an ancient looking woman stood up in the room. She said listen to all of you yaddling like you know something and trying to figure out this and that, but the one thing none of you get is that God wants your obedience first and foremost. I didn't hear anything else anyone said because that hit home with such force and truth that I could think of nothing else.

I came home that night and felt overwhelming despair, and went to my knees and fumbled through some prayer which was just basically calling out to God. It was there I was born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. I went on a search through the scriptures to find out what this obedience entailed, and my thirst is still there, I'm still discovering after several years. I made a commitment to God back there that I would no longer compromise in my walk with Him and my whole life has turned around.

I have very often wondered about this with some who say they are christians. The only explanation I have been able to come up with to this point is that they are living in a place of information rather than relationship with their Creator. But here's the thing, why is it that I heard the truth in that woman's words that night when others didn't? I tried to talk to several of the women after that and they didn't get it, in fact some thought the elderly woman was being arrogant. I always look back to that time of my life and really have to laugh at myself. I was really quite ignorant and arrogant in my thinking. I imagine to that elderly lady we all did sound like a bunch of old hens quite content in our own wisdom.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

What a wonderful illustration Teri! That is how it was for me too! Christ became a REAL SOMEONE to me! His WORD became personally for me! It's like working with a close male friend, you've seen him, he's been there in your office for years, you've even been involved in a few projects together, no big deal. But one day, you notice Him, you see Him for Who He Is! He looks differently to you, and you find yourself realizing He Is the Love of your life! He's the EVERYTHING, you've ever wanted in a mate, you just never noticed HIM before, and now that you have! Katie barr the door!!!! You're going to be looking, acting, living differently, because the LIGHT has come on! HE'S THE ONE! (Sorry, I just noticed i got off on a different tangent) But your story just brings it all back to me too! And it is about the Truth that the lady in your story spoke. Then it comes to some, when they hear it. THat is telling the Truth in love, not giving someone a false assurance of salvation, that may not have been there at all.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Jedi4Yahweh]

It seems that

[endure4salvation]

It seems one thing that people tend to forget about salvation is that it requires an inward transformation.  A true Christian does not just up and decide one day to walk away from His faith.  John though has this to say about the issue you raise:

1 John 2:19

    They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.

Here John is talking about those who professed Christ at first evidentally, but did not remain in the fold. He says that they would have not left if they had really been genuine.

Hi Shiloh! Hope your day is going as good as mine!

I would like to point out a few things about this passage that you point out and your comments.

in 1 John 2:19 we need to check the context as usual for proper perspective on this statement and what it really pertains to. Please notice that John was speaking about a specific group of people. The context of this passage doesn't allow for an interpretation contrary to a specific group of people that were in John's church. Also note that John did not say that these people never did belong to them! He only said that at the particular time they didn't belong. To make Scripture say otherwise is to make an assumption that is not founded on solid Biblical interpretations.

How long does one have to live like a Christian before they prove that their past conversion experience was a real one?

A true Christian does not have to "prove" anything. His actions will be a natural product of who he/she is in Christ.

You got stuck on the word 'prove' and therefore missed out on the larger point I was trying to make. The Bible teaches over and over in the NT that we can tell what spiritual family one belongs to according to their behavior, right? Well, if we see someone bearing good spiritual fruit, we can safely assume that they are a Christian! And if someone is not bearing good spiritual fruit, we can safely assume that they are not a Christian. This is not an opinion, this is found in the Bible many times.

So if we take your intreptation and logic, one must always doubt their previous conversion experience because they never know if they were 'truly saved to begin with'.

No, from my interpretation and logic, a true Christian not only has the witness of the Holy Spirit in their heart, but also has the Word of God which says that eternal life is present possesion Please read 1 John 5:11-13 and John 5:24. These two Scriptures tell me that eternal life is mine today, and therefore I do not have to doubt anything. Everyone KNOWS if they are truly saved or not. You know if you do or do not have eternal life.

How about that 1 John 5:11-13! Awesome passage of Scripture, isn't it! Have you ever studied Young's Literal Translation? It gives us the correct-tense of the word belief as "is believing" thereby making even this 'proof text' conditional upon our continuing to believe on Jesus! Do a search on YLT and see for yourself if the below text is not exact:

1 John 5:13 Young's Literal Translation

These things I did write to you who are believing in the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that life ye have age-during, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God.

Even John 3:16 is rendered "is believing...", thereby making even John 3:16 conditional upon our continual belief in Jesus.

Now you are talking about apostasy.  I again refer you 1 John 2: 19  The only "faith" that is abandoned is "mental assent."

So you do admit that apostasy happens then, right?