A Massive Conspiracy Theory?

[Guest Charles-Darwin]

"Most believe that humans simply wrote it. They argue that it did not take any knowledge because the Bible was written as a massive anthology filled with various ancient hebrew works from over the millenia."

They'd have a hard time with that, considering the advanced scientific and medical knowledge contained, the ancient wisdom, the prophesies etc, etc.

examples please..also prophecies that are both given and fullfilled in the bible do not count as there no evidence that the prophecy was given BEFORE the event and would be no differant than me prophesizing that on 9-11-2001 the twin tower will collapse after being hit with air planes

Wrong. The Bible gives all kinds of very specfic prophecies about the restoration of Israel and the return of exiled Jews from every part of the world to the Land of Israel to rebuild Land and that never happened at given time in history until the early part of the 20th century and the last decade or so of the 19th century.

I never said there wasnt..i said that using prophecies foretold and fullfilled in the bible is not proof of anything

• The worldwide return of the Jews to the Land (Isa. 43:5-6)
  I dont see this..i see god saying he will gather his people...i dont see a specific time or place..or even a general time or place
  
  
• Israel will be rebuilt and resettled by the Jewish people (Eze. 36: 33-35)
  no specific time or place
  
  
• Israel will be restored and repopulated (Eze. 36: 8-10)
  again no specific time
  
  
• Israel will be brought back to life (Eze. 37: 10-14)
  thats not even close to what these verses say...it says the dead PEOPLE of issrael will be brought back to life..i havent seen any zombies
  
  
• The Jews will buy back the Land (Jer. 32: 44)
  no specific time
  
  
  
• The people of Israel will once again be a united people (Eze. 37: 15-19)
  wow..lot of interpretation here..but even despite that no time line
  

so in the end..you rely on HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY interpretational leeway to read prophecies into them

ANd if you deny this..then explain how nostramus..a man not of god..could prophecy things in much more clear prophecies with time lines..with specific places

The young lion will overcome the older one,

On the field of combat in a single battle;

He will pierce his eyes through a golden cage,

Two wounds made one, then he dies a cruel death.

(Century 1, Quatrain 35)

This quatrain foretelling the death of King Henry II of France in a jousting accident is one of the most famous, predocumented, and successfully fulfilled prophecies in history.

In June 1559, Henry II ignored all warnings that Nostradamus gave him and participated in a jousting tournament against the Comte de Montgomery. Both men used shields embossed with lions. Montgomery was six years younger than Henry. A tournament is a field of ritual single combat.

During the final bout, Montgomery failed to lower his lance in time. It shattered, sending a large splinter through the king's gilded visor (golden cage). Along with minor punctures in the face and throat, there were two mortal wounds. One splinter destroyed the king's eye; the other impaled his temple just behind the eye. Both penetrated his brain. Henry lingered for ten agonizing days before dying a cruel death.

From the enslaved people, songs, chants and demands,

The princes and lords are held captive in prisons:

In the future by such headless idiots

These will be taken as divine utterances.

(Century 1, Quatrain 14)

Think of images of the French Revolution, which technically began when the Bastille was attacked on July 14, 1789. Members of the aristocracy were imprisoned and some lost their heads -- as did the mob, metaphorically, while engaging in violent actions.

The ancient work will be accomplished,

And from the roof evil ruin will fall on the great man:

They will accuse an innocent, being dead, of the deed:

The guilty one is hidden in the misty copse.

(Century 6, Quatrain 37)

The great man will be struck down in the day by a thunderbolt,

The evil deed predicted by the bearer of a petition:

According to the prediction another falls at night,

Conflict in Reims, London, and pestilence in Tuscany.

(Century 1, Quatrain 27)

Murder. Book Depository. Oswald shot and assigned guilt, although there has been much controversy over this assessment. Grassy knoll. Gunfire. Jean Dixon's warning. Robert Kennedy shot at night time. Student riots in France and England. The Florence flood.

so on and so forth

let me explain why specifcs matter in prophecy

If there are specifics involved, then it narrows the possabilites of this event happening by random chance..giving a false positive for the prophecy...if someone said on january 1st 20001 "there will be a terrorist attack this year" and someone said "there will be an attack on 9-11-2001" who is more likely t come true by random chance? the guy who has the larger time line..now if we dont have a timeline AT ALL..the date doesnt matter at all..so for the rest of the circulation of this book..if any of these events happen we can get a false positive..now it helps even more if the prophecies are vauge about their meaning..the one about buying deeds is specific about the action..but the action is a common one, it would not have been impossible for jews to have bought land at any time though the last 2000 years..but you see it as prophecy because you wish to interpret it that way. now with less specific actions..this is highly useful because now..not only is the time line non existant s a specific action that happens at any time will fullfill the propchecy but with vague actions..multiple actions may fullfill the prophesy and give a false positive

so i await more specific less interpretation heavy prophecies in your next post...and for reference..ive read all of the ones contained in aboutbibleprophecy.dom where you got these(the names match perfectly ) and theyre all vauge interpretation heavy or use the bible to prove the fullfillment..and hence unreliable

Edited January 27, 2008 by Charles-Darwin

[Guest shiloh357]

I never said there wasnt..i said that using prophecies foretold and fullfilled in the bible is not proof of anything

I am not as loose and free with the word "proof" since it appears to me that different people operate from varying standards with respect to what qualifies in their minds as "proof." The truth is that if you don't want to be convinced, there is no amount of proof that could be offered to satisfy your skepticism. To be honest, whether it was fulfilled in a time period contemporary with the Bible or at a later time, is pretty much irrelevant.

How much are you willing to stake on that assumption?

The worldwide return of the Jews to the Land (Isa. 43:5-6)

I dont see this..i see god saying he will gather his people...i dont see a specific time or place..or even a general time or place

Doesn't matter. There has never been a world-wide mass return of the Jewish people from mulitiple nations at any other given time in history. The return from Babylonian exile does not fit that desription since the return was from only one area and it was only a minority of the Jews that returned.

Since the Jews returned from Babylonian captitivty, the Land has been under the control of a string of different of different world powers over the last 2,500 years from the Hasmoneans, Romans, Muslims (until 1914) Britain(until 1948) and now the current Israeli government. The ONLY time and place that a world wide Jewish immigration into the Land has taken place is in the 20th century.

Israel will be rebuilt and resettled by the Jewish people (Eze. 36: 33-35)

no specific time or place In verse 1, it refers to the "mountains of Israel" which refers to the very heart of Israel, Judea and Samaria (West Bank). Won't get more speicific than that. As for the time, well... again, when you read the entire prophecy, it does not match any description of Israel post-Ezekiel until now. Furthermore, Ezekiel states that the Jews would return in a state of unbelief in God, and point of fact, Israel's first leaders and many of the people who immigrated to Israel were atheists and agnostics. Israel was founded by people who didn't even believe in God, but yet their actions fulfilled prophecy to the last detail.

Israel will be restored and repopulated (Eze. 36: 8-10)

again no specific time

See above remarks.

Israel will be brought back to life (Eze. 37: 10-14)

thats not even close to what these verses say...it says the dead PEOPLE of issrael will be brought back to life..i havent seen any zombies

No, that is not what it says. It is talking about the nation. The vision of the dry bones is just that a vision. The vision is to be interepreted literally but not at face value as you are doing. In fact, Eze. 36 and 37 are the same prophecy, really. They should be one chapter. It refers to a dead nation being brought back to life.

The Jews will buy back the Land (Jer. 32: 44)

no specific time

Yes, but it is very specific to what areas would be purchased and it is documented fact that after the fall of the Ottomon Empire, Jews returing to the Land purchased acres of swamp and desert from absentee Turkish landowners at outrageously expensive prices. And those purchases were made the very areas Jeremiah prophesied would be purchased as any good map of Israel will show, right down to the cities of Negev which are currently under Israeli sovereignty.

The people of Israel will once again be a united people (Eze. 37: 15-19)

wow..lot of interpretation here..but even despite that no time line

No, it is happening today. Jews live in both areas what was considered both northern and southern kingdoms. We are still in the process of fulfillment as all Jews have not completely returned. Enough have returned and events match up with the Bible in enough detail to make this fulfllment unmistakable to any one willing to approach it in an honest fashion.

[Guest Charles-Darwin]

I never said there wasnt..i said that using prophecies foretold and fullfilled in the bible is not proof of anything

I am not as loose and free with the word "proof" since it appears to me that different people operate from varying standards with respect to what qualifies in their minds as "proof." The truth is that if you don't want to be convinced, there is no amount of proof that could be offered to satisfy your skepticism. To be honest, whether it was fulfilled in a time period contemporary with the Bible or at a later time, is pretty much irrelevant.

How much are you willing to stake on that assumption?

The worldwide return of the Jews to the Land (Isa. 43:5-6)

I dont see this..i see god saying he will gather his people...i dont see a specific time or place..or even a general time or place

Doesn't matter. There has never been a world-wide mass return of the Jewish people from mulitiple nations at any other given time in history. The return from Babylonian exile does not fit that desription since the return was from only one area and it was only a minority of the Jews that returned.

Since the Jews returned from Babylonian captitivty, the Land has been under the control of a string of different of different world powers over the last 2,500 years from the Hasmoneans, Romans, Muslims (until 1914) Britain(until 1948) and now the current Israeli government. The ONLY time and place that a world wide Jewish immigration into the Land has taken place is in the 20th century.

Israel will be rebuilt and resettled by the Jewish people (Eze. 36: 33-35)

no specific time or place In verse 1, it refers to the "mountains of Israel" which refers to the very heart of Israel, Judea and Samaria (West Bank). Won't get more speicific than that. As for the time, well... again, when you read the entire prophecy, it does not match any description of Israel post-Ezekiel until now. Furthermore, Ezekiel states that the Jews would return in a state of unbelief in God, and point of fact, Israel's first leaders and many of the people who immigrated to Israel were atheists and agnostics. Israel was founded by people who didn't even believe in God, but yet their actions fulfilled prophecy to the last detail.

Israel will be restored and repopulated (Eze. 36: 8-10)

again no specific time

See above remarks.

Israel will be brought back to life (Eze. 37: 10-14)

thats not even close to what these verses say...it says the dead PEOPLE of issrael will be brought back to life..i havent seen any zombies

No, that is not what it says. It is talking about the nation. The vision of the dry bones is just that a vision. The vision is to be interepreted literally but not at face value as you are doing. In fact, Eze. 36 and 37 are the same prophecy, really. They should be one chapter. It refers to a dead nation being brought back to life.

The Jews will buy back the Land (Jer. 32: 44)

no specific time

Yes, but it is very specific to what areas would be purchased and it is documented fact that after the fall of the Ottomon Empire, Jews returing to the Land purchased acres of swamp and desert from absentee Turkish landowners at outrageously expensive prices. And those purchases were made the very areas Jeremiah prophesied would be purchased as any good map of Israel will show, right down to the cities of Negev which are currently under Israeli sovereignty.

The people of Israel will once again be a united people (Eze. 37: 15-19)

wow..lot of interpretation here..but even despite that no time line

No, it is happening today. Jews live in both areas what was considered both northern and southern kingdoms. We are still in the process of fulfillment as all Jews have not completely returned. Enough have returned and events match up with the Bible in enough detail to make this fulfllment unmistakable to any one willing to approach it in an honest fashion.

none of it matters especially if its never happened before it doesnt mean that the prophet knew the future at all..random events that eventually lead to interpretations matching that which you wsh them to match

i can be convinced..just not by frauds

[Guest shiloh357]

none of it matters especially if its never happened before

Actually if it has never happened before, that is the best argument for these events. They are one time events that cannot be placed at any other given time in history.

it doesnt mean that the prophet knew the future at all

The prophets words and their modern fufillments match too closely to be coincidence or some accidental fluke, especially since we are dealing with historically documented events. Skeptics ask why God doesn't do anything in our day and age to show He exists and when He does, the write it off any way. The problem is not a lack of evidence or support. The problem is an unwllingness to believe at any cost. LIke I said, those who are unwilling to appraoch this issue in an honoest manner, are unwilling to be convinced no matter what. That is where you stand.

..random events that eventually lead to interpretations matching that which you wsh them to match

Yet you are impotent to provide any evidence to demonstrate such a claim. The rebirth of Israel is not any more "random" than the American Revolution.

There are only two words to describe your response: Intellectual Suicide.

[Grungekid]

"Most believe that humans simply wrote it. They argue that it did not take any knowledge because the Bible was written as a massive anthology filled with various ancient hebrew works from over the millenia."

They'd have a hard time with that, considering the advanced scientific and medical knowledge contained, the ancient wisdom, the prophesies etc, etc.

examples please..also prophecies that are both given and fullfilled in the bible do not count as there no evidence that the prophecy was given BEFORE the event and would be no differant than me prophesizing that on 9-11-2001 the twin tower will collapse after being hit with air planes

The books have been dated by textual style, and they have been differentiated. The prophecies in the Old Testament mentioned in the New Testament were not being created after the fact.

[artsylady]

bumping up for Lusankya.

[artsylady]

Just for you Lusankya.

[youfoundthecard]

Ive read some of the comments, but some things don't make sense. First off all, If there is a question between wether or not a deity or a human being wrote the gospel, I would definatly believe that a man wrote it. For me, I believe that it was ALL inspired, and even at that point, it is a pretty useless argument. Either way, It is still a product of God.

To the argument that it is possible that the old testamant and the beginnings of the faith were man made - fabricated, I find it hard to believe that they would fabricate something this massive. It seems that all cultures attempted to at that point, we also know they attach themselves to a religion of some sort, more or less polytheistic, attaching themselves to Gods whom were affiliated with nature, or characteristics of a particular society. This was not the case with the God of the Jews, and with that idea, we also know that their God was more resiliant. There wasn't the (this god) is more powerful than (that god) there was just YHWH, who was their God.

Why go through what they did if it wouldn't mean anything at the end? I don't see the conspiracy whatsoever. We can argue that point around, but I don't see how we can label it as such.

[psalmone]

Jesus in His prayer in John 17:5 mention of how He was with the Father before the world was, and again in John 18:36 that His Kingdom is not of this world.

The Bible was inspired from a position of victory to those who were receptive to the Holy Spirit like Abraham in Heb 11:8, and this is still the case in those who are saved.

[artsylady]

Bumping up again for A-Team