Carnal Christians

[traveller]

Okay, I need you guys to help me out here. The way that I understand the "carnal Christian" is the way it is explained in Jude. Didn't they think that the flesh and the spirit were so far removed from each other that the flesh would have no effect on the spirit? That God would forgive them anything, including purposeful sinning? That God's grace would cover them and if they sinned more and more, then more and more grace to be awarded them?

Isn't that why Jude tells us that of all the people that were delivered out of Egypt, only two made it into the promised land? The others, though they were brought forth, chose to continue in their egyptian ways, their flesh, and were sorted out by God, and left only two that remained faithful.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

From how I have always understood it, these men were conscience of their sinning. They did it on purpose and taught others to do the same, saying that life eternal was theirs regardless of what they did in the flesh. They were not remorseful nor repentant.

Am I all wrong in this?

[tsth]

Dear Shadow,

I need to clarify, that my postings originally on breaking fellowship, were incorrect in that I first posted a wrong chapter number, and secondly, if Idol had not payed very closed attention to my following posts on speaking the Truth in love, it could have been taken out of context, and misunderstood. I apologize for not being very precise in how I posted, but I did clearly post the correct Word, and teaching, in my last post to Idol. So, having said all of that, it could be, that Idol just very easily misunderstood my initial posts, and now is in agreement after seeing the correct post? Eh? Idol?

:il:

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest idolsmasher]

Well, I have to admit that I take issue with some of Paul's writings, such as women having to keep silence in the churches etc. I think a lot of Paul's writings fall under"this say I, not the Lord". Anyway, I understand there are times when it may be necessary to shun people in some way, but I believe it should be done in love and not self righteousness, in order that any such action might have the desired effect of helping that person to have a change of heart. In order to do this I believe it is necessary to at least keep a line of communication open in order to help them and bring them under the Lord's conviction. Christ never leaves nor forsakes us and I believe that He would have us show the same love to others. If Christ would have us show love to our enemies, how much more we should love those of us who have strayed in order to win them back into fellowship with God and the bretheren.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Would if Christ had shunned all of us? He certainly could have seeing we're all sinners and He is perfect.

[Guest shadow2b]

-Well, I have to admit that I take issue with some of Paul's writings, such as women having to keep silence in the churches etc. I think a lot of Paul's writings fall under"this say I, not the Lord".

-----------------------

-SMASH BROTHER;YOU are NOT taking "issue"with Pauls writings---YOU are taking "issue"with GOD--

-HIMSELF---The WORD states--emphatically----Webster's new collegiate dictionary-----

-emphatically--------

-1-uttered with or marked by emphasis....

-2-tending to express oneself in forceful speech or to take decisive action....

-3-attracting special attention......

-Now on to the "shunning"aspect of Pauls instructions to the Church at Corinth....

-1st.corin.5.vss.1.thru.13------

-Paul iis giving instructions on how to deal with a"Brother" that is in a sexual sin--immorality----

-vs.5----

-To deliver such an one unto satan for the destruction of the flesh,that the spirit

-may be saved in the day of the LORD-JESUS.....

-The overall concern for Paul was for this "brothers" spirit to be saved....

-The"shunning" might have "seemed" harsh BUT it was not,he was concerned where this

-Brother was going to spend eternity,heaven or hell....The end of that "sin"was going to

-bring death,so which is more cruel,to play patty-cake-paty-cake &-tell the man you were

-praying for him & knew his"problem"would eventually work out for the good??

-Turning him over to satan certainly"seems"kinda harsh but not really,if you consider

-the end results of sin...sin=death---repentence=life......

-Chpts. 5 & 6 are addressing this"sin" & it must be stopped &/or dealt with immediately

-this mans sin was in the public eye--everyone knew what was going on & it was bringing

-reproach to the name of JESUS...This was a new & very young "church"everyone in the town

-was watching & this immorality had to be dealt with immediately & in a decisive manner...

-AS to Paul speaking by permission of GOD & not a commandment only occured twice...

-Paul is talking about ministers of the word & being married or unmarried....

- He is quite explicit that IF a man wanted to serve GOD & HIM only then he could stay

-unmarried so he could study the scriptures,pray & seek GOD....IF he was married then that was

-o.k.too.those instructions are in chpt.7.vss.1.thru.40--& covers men staying virgins,the marriage

-the death of a husband or wife.....

-2nd.Peter.1.vs.20-21---------

-Knowing this first,that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

-For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man;but holy men of GOD

-spake as they were moved by the HOLY-GHOST

-2nd.Timothy.3.vss.16-17--------

-All scripture is given by inspiration of GOD,and is profitable for doctrine,for reproof,

-for correction,for instruction in righteousness;That the man of GOD may be perfect,

-throughly furnished unto all good works.....

-Now Smash bro. it is quite plain that Paul wrote out of his own perspective as a man

-that was totally dedicated to serving GOD & HIM only.He wanted NO distractions from

-that service to GOD in any way whatsoever & that is why he was not married & IF GOD

-could give this gift of celibacy to other men that was the BEST way to be totally dedicated

-to serving GOD....But If they were married then that Gift was to be treated with the same

-kind of love & care that JESUS had for the church--HIS bride....

-Now Smash my Brother how in the big blue eyed wide world could you have any dispute

-or lack of trust or take "issue"with a man that was caught up to the third heaven,was in GOD'S

-very presence & heard unspeakable words that were"unlawful for a man to utter????

-2nd.corin.12.vss.1.thru.10--------

-SO either the BIBLE is GOD'S word as the scriptures declare or it's man's words,& is pure folly

-to try to follow.......IF that is your position about "any"writer of the BIBLE,you might just as well

-throw it out the window & sit down & make up your own Book of rules,laws,traditions,regulations,

-& pleasingly,palatable,poor,pious,purely plausible platitudes to believe in & promote.......

-GOD-BLESS-ALL-TRUTH-SEEKERS------------------Gary--

[tsth]

Oh darn..........I just thought maybe you misunderstood my posts........ Think about it Idol, you are taking issue with God in this matter. It's not about what you or I think would be best, or how we "feel" about something.... it's everything about what God says is best to do. I've had to do that sort of thing, and I know first hand, God was right, and they did come to a Godly repentance because of it. God doesn't speak what He does via the Word, in vain, everything has a purpose and God knows what is best for the body.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest caffeineyellow5]

Holy men of God spake as they were moved of the Holy Ghost!

Paul didn't write ANYTHING that the LORD did not move him to write. He may have said that it was him speaking from his own point of view, but if God did not give what he said a huge 'AMEN', then we would not have it in the Scriptures today. The Holy Ghost said that and we read it today as Holy Scripture! So if you take issue with what the LORD hath wrote, you take issue with it, but don't blame Paul.

Now, as far as 'carnal christians', I prefer to use the term 'carnal saved-folk'. A Christian CANNOT be carnal! Christian means Christ-like or 'a little Christ'. If you are carnal, you are not Christian and if you are Christian, then you are not carnal. You can be saved and carnal, but never Christ-like and carnal.

Romans 1:18-32

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Those described by Romans 1 are saved folk that held the truth of God through illumination of God by the Holy Ghost in them while in a relationship with Him and He knew them. They got to sinning and got filled with pride and lust, thus changing the glory of God in them into a prideful exhibition of spiritual knowledge, changing the truth of God's Word of sanctification into a lie of deciept and trickery to all who may look for a testimony of such sanctification. They are then allowed by God to go into three progressions of judgment; given up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, given up to vile affections, and given over to a reprobate mind (a severly malfuncioning mind or a mind that makes the wrong decision every time). This three-fold progression more than likely will end up with God bringing a saved person home to Him, being worthy of death, that he may no longer make a mockery of the eternal salvation once recieved. those that get to the third stage of God's judgment are those that finally actively try to forget God (they did not like to retain God in their knowledge) and His works once wrought in his heart and life.

Shunning....

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

mark = Strong's 4648 for

[Guest caffeineyellow5]

to the doctrine = Strong's 1322 for

[Guest caffeineyellow5]

avoid = Strong's 1578 for

Shun and hate them? NO, God forbid! Shun and love and pray for them? YES, by all means! Fellowship with them? No. Be freinds with them? No. Be a freind to them? Yes, from afar. A falling tide lowers all ships, and a sinner, even a saved one, can bring even the most spiritual among us down to base levels in a short time.

[Fewarechosen7F]

What I'm hearing from the responses is that a 'carnal Christian' may be one of three types:

1. Not had a genuine conversion

2. Still a babe maturing and wrestling with the flesh

3. Backslidden, straying from the faith

Is there another category that I'm missing?

The main cause for concern would be the bad witness for the church, giving the enemy occasion to blaspheme, bringing reproach on the name of God, which is pretty serious. Not to mention concern for the person's soul.

Hello!

A catagory that I perceive is that of habitually considering spiritual informaton from the natural viewpoint. It is sort of like the Doctor who overlooks the true cause of sickness because he stopped looking when he found the possible cause.

[Fewarechosen7F]

I think everyone is carnal minded to some degree, it just seems to be the nature of the flesh. I could be wrong but I always thought that what Paul was saying is the the carnal mind or in other words that part of us that tends to carnality is enmity with God because it can cause us to stray from God's path. In other words, we all have a carnal mind and a spiritual mind and as Christians we must struggle to overcome the carnal mind. On the other hand, sometimes we can be overly spiritual too and spiritualise too much if you know what I mean. I don't think it is possible for people to never be carnal, but we have to realise when carnality is interfering with our walk with God and fight to keep in tune with Him.

I would have to agree. We have to daily crucify our flesh. It is something we fight everyday. Sometimes we win, and sometimes unfortunately we give in. We are in a process of sanctification. If we didn't have that carnal side, there would be no carnal thoughts or habits to be sanctified from.

I also agree. Individually, we easily fall prey to the sin that so easily besets us. But when all members of the household are battling carnal mindedness in one accord, the household takes on a new lifestyle. That is - until they are out among those who do not battle carnal mindedness, where that sin again so easily besets us. It has to do with speaking with the new tongue that is one of the signs that follow the believer of Christ.