Death Certificates on Abortions Proposed

[forrestkc]

maybe some radical groups do. but the general public does not. therefore the women would not be discriminated against or prohibited from any activity in life, except for hanging around a bunch of mean people they don't want to hang around with anyway.

They will put it on the internet. These people are crazy. They will do whatever they can to make a scarlet letter out of it. You have a right to privacy, that is the point.

[Floatingaxe]

Murderers have a right to privacy? I think the murdered do.

[Guest LadyC]

forrest, i do think you're sounding very paranoid. out of all your arguments thus far, that's the only halfway reasonable argument you've made, but it sounds like some conspiracy theory to me. who knows, maybe there is some radical pro-life website that lists names of people who have had abortions. i'm not aware of it, and can't imagine who, in their right mind, would waste their time looking such a site up to see if they knew anyone whose name was listed.

[Emily~Anne]

Forrest, your wisdom is from the world. Read the 2nd, 3rd and 4th verse in my siggy.

If reason and concience were useless, God would have never given them to us.

Look, as I stated earlier, I believe that abortion in most cases is wrong. It is an issue of conscience and ethics though (the concience that God gives us)

I notice you mention several times about our 'God given reasoning and conscience'. The problem is what we may consider to be acceptable, may not be acceptable to God. We are flawed. We are dependant on God to show us what is right and wrong and must give up our own notions. Are you following the Holy Spirit's leading? Or are you perhaps following the world's secular reasoning and your own intellect and understanding so strongly you are drowning out the Holy Spirit in your life? The important thing is not to rely on self and the world's secular reasoning to figure out what is right and what is wrong. If I were to do this, I would have never looked into what is so wrong with homosexuality and many other things that are an abomination to God. Because of our inherent sinful natures, we must look to God for guidance, not ourselves or what the world says.

Isaiah 64:6-8

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,

and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

we all shrivel up like a leaf,

and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

7 No one calls on your name

or strives to lay hold of you;

for you have hidden your face from us

and made us waste away because of our sins.

8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father.

We are the clay, you are the potter;

we are all the work of your hand.

What we may consider to be right through a determination of what our own intellect and consciousness tells us can conflict with what God considers to be right.

The problem is you are relying too much on the world's secular reasoning and your own intellect, and need to rely more on the Holy Spirit

[nebula]

If Moses were among us today, ruling a nation, we would consider him a monster. In Exodus verses 1 and 2 we see the ritual sacrifice of the first born of every man and beast. Is that a high regard for the sanctity of life?

Moses had no qualms at all in ordering the slaughter of every man, woman, and child in war. Look at Numbers 31:14-18

[Guest lnj]

The very thought of a death certificate for aborted babies may in fact be jarring enough for those who may abort simply for the fact it(baby) would be an inconvenience to their "lifestyle" and could possibly make them think twice.

Then the problem remains...unwanted babies that WERE born....and rejected either by abondenment at birth or abandonment from withheld love.

The problem is bigger than abortion itself. We are facing a reflex issue in a society that loves SELF more than OTHERS. Unborn babies being one of the OTHERS.

It's a problem that seems like there's no answer at present. Very, very, sad. Humans have lost their value on LIFE itself.

[apothanein kerdos]

And notice how he has ignored it since then. The reason is he can't debate the morality of the issue, only the legality of it.

I actually addressed the issue in two posts after it.

I will repeat it here:

Look, as I stated earlier, I believe that abortion in most cases is wrong. It is an issue of conscience and ethics though (the concience that God gives us), as there is really no basis for such a belief one way or the other in scripture. The Bible is relatively ambiguous on the issue. It is so ambiguous that both sides of this issue can easily string together a scriptural argument in support of their beliefs.

What I don

[Marnie]

No one, that I have noticed, has actually said where is the actual need for it...how does supporting it go with the fruit of the spirit?

A reminder

Gal 5:22,23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The post that I have read for it do not show love or joy or any of the above...the only things I have seen from the people who suport it is the attitude of a witch hunt....where does the bible say we have to condem someone if they chose to do something we dont agree with? where does it say these non christian should act like us to make us happy?

I would appreciate sensable answers to the above...not gaurded slurs on my character like last time I gave my opinion on something so strong.

I think for those who see abortion as murder, which I do, the treatment of one who has committed a murder is pretty clear from a church discipline perspective. 1 Corinthians 5:1--13 comes to mind. Particularly this verse,

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may a new lump, as ye are unleavened.

The context is sexual sin, but the application could go as far as to one who has had an abortion. If this woman repents and asks forgiveness, then so be it, she should be restored to fellowship. But for a woman to have an abortion and think nothing of it and have an almost lackadaisical attitude about it, she needs to be confronted by her pastor, in love, for the sake of the church. If she remains unrepentant, then she needs to be cut lose, as Paul clearly teaches. I don't know any other way to read these verses.

You can quote verses about love and acceptance until you're blue in the face, but you cannot ignore the rest of the Scripture for fear of offending someone. As Paul said, a little leaven can work its way through the whole loaf; a little sin can infect an entire church. I think this is what we see happening in the church today. There was a time when an out of wedlock pregnancy was shameful. Now we throw a shower for person in the fellowship hall. I mean, it's all upside down.

Ok the context is sexual sin...as a christian I can see that...what good would these certs do? what is the value of them? will it stop people having abortions? no...why not...not everyone who has one is unmarried.

as for quoting scripture until I am blue in the face...it does not make it any less relivent because people want to ignore it and chose not to use it...yes sin can infect an entire church...I totally agree with you.....you know america and every other country on the face of this plant is a secular country? not everyone goes to church not everyone is a christian...and no I am not ignoring othe rscripture...there is no scripture that tells us to hate and condem...I do infact believe the scripture tells us to do otherwise...from your last sentace it seems you want these certs so that a women can be shamed....

I dare you and all the others to go to someone whose had an abortion...tell them they are jezabels...then have the nerve to preach about Gods love and forgiveness.

No...its much easier to come down on the side of the moral high horse and condem.

I am so glad our father in heaven is much more forgiving...other wise porr sinners like myself and the apostle paul would never get a look in.

Marine...thank you for your response.

I think we are more or less on the same page here. As I said, it's a Biblical mandate to confront sin/sinners in the church, it's not my idea, it's G-d's. If I was G-d, I'd say leave them all alone until they get to heaven. However, I am not, and we need to abide by Biblical dictates. The reason why this thread is so heated is because the church has fallen asleep in the Light, to quote Keith Greene.

[forrestkc]

Oh what little you know forrest.

These deal with God's judgments on the people. Moses didn't command the killings - God did. The reason is His judgment had passed on the people (corporal judgment of community actions, something I don't expect you to understand really) and it would be quite foolish for Israel to keep enemies around, especially pagan ones, who would later come back and have revenge on them.

Oh, and you didn't deal with the passage of scripture I gave. Probably because you've never actually read or studied the Bible in your life.

AK, I did address your post, I think you must have missed it. Here it is:

I edited and quoted the context.

"When men have a fight and hurt a pregnant woman, so that she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury, the guilty one shall be fined as much as the woman's husband demands of him, and he shall pay in the presence of the judges.

23

4 But if injury ensues, you shall give life for life,

The context is clear, miscarriage caries a fine, if the woman suffers harm as result, then a life for a life.

Now, lets just say you are right about it being a premature birth, as the Hebrew term yatsa means "lose her offspring". Even then the ancient Hebrews believed a person was a breathing human being, thus the fetus was not a person, until the fetus was born and took its first breath.

Look at other verses from the Old Testament:

Leviticus 27:6 And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver and for the female ten shekels.

This would indicate that a baby had no real value until it was at least a month old.

Some theologians also point out:

Numbers 5:12-31 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water..... This passage describes the action that a husband could take if he suspected that his wife had engaged in an adulterous relationship. He would take her and an offering of barely meal to the tabernacle, where the priest would make a magical drink consisting of holy water and sweepings from the tabernacle floor. He would have the woman drink the water while he recited a curse on her. The curse would state that her abdomen would swell and her thigh waste away if she had committed adultery. Otherwise, the curse would have no effect. If she were pregnant at this time, the curse would certainly induce an abortion. Yet nobody seems to have been concerned about the fate of any embryo or fetus that was present. There was no similar magical test that a woman could require her husband to take if she suspected him of adultery.

The Old Testament is rife with examples of the ancient Hebrews total disregard for innocent women and children in times of war, yet one should believe that they thought an embryo or fetus was a human being deserving of the same rights and protections that a child would?

I mean look, personally, I think that abortion in most instances is wrong, but I also think the bible is rather ambiguous on the issue. In fact, I think the evidence is clear that our sense of morality and respect for life is much, much greater than that of the ancient Hebrews.

As to your other comments. I am not sure how to address that. I have always been polite and respectful of your opinions on here. Yet here we disagree on this issue, and all of a sudden, I have "never actually read or studied the Bible in your life."

That

[forrestkc]

If Moses were among us today, ruling a nation, we would consider him a monster. In Exodus verses 1 and 2 we see the ritual sacrifice of the first born of every man and beast. Is that a high regard for the sanctity of life?

Moses had no qualms at all in ordering the slaughter of every man, woman, and child in war. Look at Numbers 31:14-18