Hold on...

[MorningGlory]

then examine your evidence, as I will examine mine. The wide margin is opinions, and explinations of the evidence. I don't believe in irreducible complexity, by the way I do believe however, that the complexity of humanity couldnt evolve, I believe we where created with the ability to adapt to our surroundings, spread and pass knowledge and logic, and that is how we came to be what we are, do you honestly believe that you are just an animal, that is highly evolved? Well reason and logic to figure out the truth wouldn't really be relivent then, I have a question, How could you honestly believe that you are less that what you are? You have a brilliant mind, and your posts I find very challenging, but by the notion that macro-evolution is true, then you are limiting yourself to be an evolved animal, God created us so much more, he gave us the ability to reason, to use logic, we are created in his image, he is a creator, as are we.

AND....He endowed each and every one of us with a soul. Highly evolved animal? Give me a break!

[MorningGlory]

The following puts the shaft to the old, tired, Darwinistas. Most of whom are flaming atheists, it seems.

Evolution is a sound and plausible theory....for all forms of life besides man, and it IS just a theory. If anyone believes that the language of DNA could morph randomly then please contact me at 1-800-SUCKER; I have a condo in Baghdad for sale.

Full Article:

DNA: The Tiny Code That's Toppling Evolution

http://gnmagazine.org/issues/gn58/tinycode.htm

[TomPJr]

Silly Rock, Your Slime is showing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

Abiogenesis (Greek a-bio-genesis, "non biological origins") is, in its most general sense, the generation of life from non-living matter.

Horizoneast, I'm wondering why you don't listen to these people, at least a little bit. Most everyone is telling you the exact same thing, and hopefully you're not just ignoring or denying it as a matter of pride.

Puffeth Puffeth Oh Mighty Dragon

"The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

"His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them." (Psalms 10:4-5)

Love, Joe

[SaturnV]

Horizon-nonbelivers have had their PM function disabled

[SaturnV]

SV

Edited March 5, 2007 by SaturnV

[ted]

I realize this post might not sound as diplomatic as it could be, so I hope you don't think I have an axe to grind with Christianity itself. I have no problem with the vast majority of believers who keep their beliefs in their Church and can reconcile their religious beliefs with the evidence. However, I do take exception when fundamentalists try to force their beliefs on others-and are willing to tear down education, research and even science itself to do so-not to mention the separation of Church and State.

Translation:

Shut up, little Christians. You're too stupid to understand much of what is going on. So, keep your mouth shut.

Except, of course, you Christians who are intelligent enough to be in the vast majority of people who are willing to let the wind blow your faith down as we direct it.

Sound about right?

t.

[SaturnV]

SV

Wait a sec here-I specifically stated that acceptance of the Theory of Evolution does not preclude a belief in God, and referred to Angry as an example of the vast majority of Christians who have no problem with the Theory.

Christians have no problem with any of the science disciplines including biological evolution. The fact is many Christians are scientists. Most Christians do however have problems with philosophical atheism (Darwinism) being pawned off as science just as you should.

Most Christians also have a big problem with Creationism, and your argument that many Christians are scientists is exactly my point. Evolution does not necessitate atheism.

Are you also saying that you now accept the Theory of Evolution as science? By your own arguments, you should also be dead set against Young Earth Creationism, which is literalist theism trying to masquerade as science.

If this "Darwinism" you've been going on about for most of this thread is simply atheism justified by scientific knowledge, that is not a scientific position. And, you are right, the proper term for that is "Scientism."

The term "Darwinism" is often used to denote competitive selection, for example "Economic Darwinism" referring to competition in the marketplace. It is a vernacular term mostly used by Social Scientists, and it is not the same thing as Scientism.

I am not hostile to science – I am here to preserve the integrity of science. And of course your statement above is not correct. Naturalistic evolution is by definition an "atheistic progression", i.e., the development of the species (molecule-to-man) must occur through purely naturalistic processes, without intervention from God or any other deity. It must be a process that does not have man in mind. This assumption my friend is in the realm of speculative philosophy and not science. If you deny this fact then you either don’t understand the difference between metaphysics and science or you are here to deceive.

I don't see anywhere in the Theory of Evolution or in any of the Origin of Life hypotheses where God is specifically ruled out.

I also think that you seem to be limiting God's power. Why are you so quick preclude the possibility that God arranged for everything to happen? As I've said before, you are choosing to create the false "God or Darwin" dichotomy, and the only reason I can see for that is you do not want to let go of the idea that the Earth is 6000 years old.

SV

Scientific progression should not stop but the “”winds of change” that allow the encroachment of naturalistic philosophy to be taught as science is shameful to those scientists who introduce it and especially shameful to those scientists who see it happen and do not speak out against it. Where does your heart lies on this matter?

I see the the best explanation based on current evidence being taught as science, which is fine by me. I've looked for philosophy in the primary literature, but I just don't see Straub and Feuer's "Adenosinetriphosphate, the functional group of actin" comparing to Plato's dialogues. Maybe that's just me.

Lol - you need to take a sabbatical from your science studies my friend and take a crash course in history and philosophy if you are to maintain your credibility. I suggest you go back to the roots of atheism in western culture (modern era) with the emergence of humanism during the Renaissance and its continued progression through the mid 19th century with the atheistic-humanistic systems of philosophy taught by the likes of Feuerbach, Marx and Nietzsche. Of course this was about the same time that Darwin released “Origins” – not to be confused as a coincidental affair. No, the culture war you feebly attempt to paint started much earlier than the "school board battles" of the past few years – much, much earlier.

I borrowed the term "culture war" from your earlier post in answer to your question about why some atheists have become more vocal in recent years. That appeared to be what you were referring to.

I have actually read a fair bit of philosophy and am quite familiar with the history of the Renaissance, the Scientific Revolution and the aptly named Enlightenment. The ideals of the Enlightenment (to which you must have been referring with your mid-19th Century examples) are generally considered to have culminated with the American and French revolutions of the 18th Century. Those same values you are so quick to vilify went into the making of the U.S. Constitution, so try not to be too hasty with your generalizations.

Someone as well versed on history as yourself should also know that Marx's ideas were born out of the abuses of the Industrial Revolution, not the discoveries of the Scientific Revolution or the humanist values of the Enlightenment. I believe you would also know that humanist values are not necessarily secular.

If you want to trace the writings of Dawkins, Harris et al. back to the Renaissance, I'll make the same extension and trace the thinking of Ken Ham, John Morris, and their Creationist followers to well before then.

I think it is obvious that you do have an axe to grind and if I am correct then grind it - I am not here to defend anyone who wishes to reject science and go back to the horse and buggy era. The point is there should be no enmity between faith and science but it is not to be. Why – because science tries to practice philosophy and theology tries to practice science. Science and theology are two different animals.

If I do, it's with Fundamentalists, not Christians as a whole. I differentiate between the two so as not to tar mainstream Christians, who I have no argument with, with the same brush as Creationists. That's all that I was trying to say. You claim that you do not want to see Science return to the "Horse and Buggy" era, and that you want to "protect the integrity of Science," but you do seem content to see Biology return to the days of Lamarckian inheritance. Compared to where we are now, that is in the territory of the covered wagon.

You are absolutely right that Science and Theology are completely different disciplines. Why is it, then, that Creationists seek to find "scientific" justification for the Bible? Isn't that completely pointless?

Btw - you did not address Dawkins and company and their vitriolic attack on the Christian faith – do you have no thoughts on the neo-atheist vanguard led by Darwinists declaring war on people of faith? Surely you don’t approve of such "cleansings". Have you ever taken a stand on the side of decency?

I addressed the roots of it, which is what you were asking.

The question of decency is a tough one, and I know that it's easy to offend when discussing deeply held beliefs. However, I believe cultural relativism can only be taken so far-and I've already been labeled as "intolerant" for protesting the recognition of Sharia Law (which I consider to be a backward, misogynistic and brutally oppressive belief system) in Ontario. So, in a very basic sense, I agree with Dawkins that religion should not be immune from criticism—if it were, we'd end up with the notion of women as property being legally sanctioned. I also think that the "War on Science" I alluded to earlier needs to be defeated. That being said, criticism should be as polite as possible.

I'm also not sure what you meant by the term "Cleansing." If you are insinuating that Dawkins and company are advocating violence against religious people, that is definitely not the case.

Edited March 7, 2007 by SaturnV

[Guest]

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Isaiah 1:18)

If I do, it's with Fundamentalists, not Christians as a whole. I differentiate between the two so as not to tar mainstream Christians, who I have no argument with, with the same brush as Creationists.

About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition. - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)

There is a scientist's scientist who actually knew a thing or two about Fundamentalists and God's Foundational Truths!

I'll have to look him up when I finally get home to Jesus.

Wonder if he got in as much trouble with the anti-fundamental, anti-Bible, anti-Christian religious powers of his day as Christian scientists, parents and children get into with the anti-fundamental, anti-Bible, anti-Christian religious powers of today's America?

Why does this happen?

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;" (Romans 1:28)

"..... haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, ....." (Romans 1:30)

"Without understanding, covenantbreakers..... implacable, unmerciful:" (Romans 1:31)

"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Romans 1:32)

I am surprised that you, even with all your miss-information about Christians and about Jesus, have not caught the Truth.....

The Lord Jesus Christ Is The Creator.

Therefore all followers of Christ, All Christians are Creationists.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

"The same was in the beginning with God."

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:1-3)

It is fundamental.

When you deny The Creation, you deny The Creator.

When you deny The Creator, you deny The Lord Jesus Christ.

If one is indeed a Christian, The Holy Spirit will teach him or her God's Truths,

He continuously does so to me.

Therefore, I do not quibble with dear brothers and sisters over this foundational fact.

The Bible is True.

God will teach His own.

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (John 16:13)

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Revelation 3:19)

Your apparent militant paganism will not make a single dent in God's Kingdom.

In fact, it will bring more Glory to Jesus and to those you may try to harm.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)

However, I am given clear and concise instructions by The Creator to show you His love.

I'm humbled and honored to do so once again.

Fundamental Christianity

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23)

Fundamental Christianity

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

Fundamental Christianity

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

Fundamental Christianity

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15)

Fundamental Christianity

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:"

"And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads".

"And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever." (Revelation 22:3-5)

I do not yet totally despair for you Cousin.

Your posts still show the restraint of one whom The Holy Spirit of The Living God is still contending with.

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

"For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die."

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:6-8)

If you indeed tasted of Jesus and then rejected Him, Cousin you are in deep trouble!

Your rage against God will grow until it consumes all joy from your heart and you will find you have no limit to your hatred toward Christians!

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,"

"And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,"

"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 4:4-6)

Jesus loves you this I know

For The Bible tells me so.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:17-18)

" The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:"

"The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:"

"The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace." (Numbers 6:24-26)

"And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them." (Numbers 6:27)

Maranatha!

Hallelujah!

Love, Joe

[Joshua-777]

SaturnV said

The question of decency is a tough one, and I know that it's easy to offend when discussing deeply held beliefs. However, I believe cultural relativism can only be taken so far-and I've already been labeled as "intolerant" for protesting the recognition of Sharia Law (which I consider to be a backward, misogynistic and brutally oppressive belief system) in Ontario. So, in a very basic sense, I agree with Dawkins that religion should not be immune from criticism

[SaturnV]

Please clarify - what do you mean when you say