No Second Chance

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No Anon your not lost.

Great posts Calamity and George

Gods will is done.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Guest Teri]

I have to go with One Accord on this one. Ever since my salvation experience I have asked repeatedly the same question. Why me Lord. I did nothing to deserve it, He came down from heaven and just put it upon me like a Damascus road experience. I have watched the world go by, high and low and questions continued to pile up. I read about all the places and languages that don't even have a Bible in their tongue and think wow how many have perished because no one got to them. Something smells really bad about all of this. If what everyone is saying is true then as good christians sell your home and get on the road because alot of people are going to hell because of our self-centeredness. While we sit back and get real cozy in our realization of our own salvation the majority of the world is literally going to hell and it lasts forever.

Or God made a oath. Isaiah 45:22-23 Look to Me and be saved, ALL ends of the earth! For I am God and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that unto Me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR (ALLEGIANCE).

Philippians 2:10-11 That in the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in the heaven and on the earth and UNDER THE EARTH. And every tongue confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God.

Romans 5:18 Well then, as one man's trespass to condemnation for ALL men, so one Man's act of righteousness to acquittal and right standing with God and life for ALL men.

So if all men were made sinners by one mans actions then all were brought to salvation by the free will gift (God's grace) by one man's actions. And what does under the earth mean? And isn't death and hell going to be thrown into the lake of fire? Why is it everyone takes the first part of that literally and not the second part?

As far as Abraham's bosom being a parable or real go and read it. If it is real and it proves hell of eternal pain and suffering than by that scripture where the rich man calls out to Abraham and he answers it would lead us to believe that we are going to be able to see and speak with our beloved family and friends that don't quite measure up. Someone also pointed out that the rich man never repented, well neither did the poor guy suffering out by the gate.

I implore you guys read every last word, and would someone respond to the Greek interpretations because they are well worth looking at since Paul was writing in Greek. Seek Gods wisdom and ask the hard questions. Why me Lord, and why not the people all over the globe that never even heard of Christ. You may be suprised what He tells you. One last question I would like answered. If those of us plucked out of the ages and there is a remnant plucked out of each age by Christ himself to be given this gift. And we are going to reign with Christ as Son's of God. Who are we reigning over? Oh by the way if Christ did go to hell and preach to the inhabitants thereof, and they being born before Christ's time, or even after but never heard a word about him, would that be considered a second chance or a first.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[BlindSeeker]

Walking through Christianity has been a labyrinth, a crazy quilt quest for the Truth, mucking through all kinds of doctrines and rules and churches and denominations, false teaching this, heresy that.

What is really happening is I have been wading through knee high traditions of men, questionable translations of scriptures, endless theological dilemmas, the same ones that have been debated for 2000 or so years, a popular modern-day Westernized version of Christianity that doesn't look much like the early church as far as I can tell, plus some pretty bloody church history, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

I believe with all my heart and all my soul that my God is the all in all, He is steadfast in love, abounding in mercies beyond our wildest imaginings, He is absolutely just and will judge in absolute righteousness and His love is far deeper and wider and higher than any of us can possibly attain to, and that He desires to reconcile His children unto Himself, all that He does will be for the ultimate good, including the judgement and one day every knee will bow before His holiness and every creature will sing praises to Him.  We can choose His mercy or His wrath, but we will reckon with the cross one way or another.

As for me, restore to me the joy of my salvation.  I'm believing in His love, I'm believing that His mercy endures forever, and that even His judgement will be in love for His sake.  Some will se fire and some will see light but He'll get the job done and we'll come out of it pure gold.  He'll get the glory, we'll get the joy.  I'm thankful to have His mercy now, woe, to those who choose the wrath.

BTW Traveller, I love that passage in Acts.........

Greetings One Accord,

I too have been where I perceive you to be in this line of reasoning, (and I rejoice at such a desirous to know mind as yours). I have just of late been aware of your thread here and would have like to have found it earlier.

Time evades me now for adequate opportunity to respond to many of your questions . . . but I will try to stay abreast of this thread so as to be timely in my postings.

I have no doubt that such an inquisitive mind as yours, you will be greatly satisfied by the wellspring of the Spirit of Truth. Be patient.

William

[Matthitjah]

Bless you,

OA I can see your extreme concern and Love for the lost. Bless you!

The Lord is concerned too! So much so that it took a desperate act of Agape Love to get the message out!

To get past all the;

knee high traditions of men, questionable translations of scriptures, endless theological dilemmas, the same ones that have been debated for 2000 or so years, a popular modern-day Westernized version of Christianity that doesn't look much like the early church as far as I can tell, plus some pretty bloody church history, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

I pray for the lost daily.

This is why we have the great commission and the earnest desire that all men be saved. Simply so we will understand how desperate their situation is. Having once been like they. It took drastic measures to assure our salvation.

Your concern shows. Bless you. We weren't made for this mess. We were made to glorify our Father. We were made to Love Him and He us!

Adam, Adam! Where are you?

Haunting seperation from the Father.

How much worse complete seperation?

The Cross was the solution from the foundation of the earth.

G-d knew the seperation would come. It didn't make it any less painful to him.

So much pain He felt from that seperation that He was willing to offer something so very precious to restore it.

The Cross is a complete act of Love!

The very Love you feel for those lost!

Bless you!

Much Grace , Much Peace, Much Love,

Dave

[Guest idolsmasher]

And what power would the cross have if we could have a second chance after death?

I think the cross is powerful enough to reach all the way back to Adam and all throughout the ages both behind and before us. Do you think people will be able to repent in the Millenium? I do.

Look, it's not God Who I am questioning. I am absolutely in love with God and always have been a seeker of Him. Finding Jesus was like the icing on the cake, like I was hotwired right into the Almighty and I had a very intense conversion experience completely outside of the church with no Christians guiding it. Total move of the Spirit, no turning back, I'm a believer, I am passionately in love with Jesus.

Then comes the Jesus and part. Walking through Christianity has been a labyrinth, a crazy quilt quest for the Truth, mucking through all kinds of doctrines and rules and churches and denominations, false teaching this, heresy that.

What is really happening is I have been wading through knee high traditions of men, questionable translations of scriptures, endless theological dilemmas, the same ones that have been debated for 2000 or so years, a popular modern-day Westernized version of Christianity that doesn't look much like the early church as far as I can tell, plus some pretty bloody church history, etc etc etc ad nauseum.

I believe with all my heart and all my soul that my God is the all in all, He is steadfast in love, abounding in mercies beyond our wildest imaginings, He is absolutely just and will judge in absolute righteousness and His love is far deeper and wider and higher than any of us can possibly attain to, and that He desires to reconcile His children unto Himself, all that He does will be for the ultimate good, including the judgement and one day every knee will bow before His holiness and every creature will sing praises to Him. We can choose His mercy or His wrath, but we will reckon with the cross one way or another.

As for me, restore to me the joy of my salvation. I'm believing in His love, I'm believing that His mercy endures forever, and that even His judgement will be in love for His sake. Some will se fire and some will see light but He'll get the job done and we'll come out of it pure gold. He'll get the glory, we'll get the joy. I'm thankful to have His mercy now, woe, to those who choose the wrath.

BTW Traveller, I love that passage in Acts.........

I do believe this is one of the best posts I have ever seen and I thoroughly agree with you. Reminds me of an old hymn:

The love of God

How rich and pure

How measureless

and strong

it goes beyond

the highest star

and reaches to

the lowest hell.

Forgot a few lines but that's the jist of it!

I believe with all my heart and all my soul that my God is the all in all, He is steadfast in love, abounding in mercies beyond our wildest imaginings, He is absolutely just and will judge in absolute righteousness and His love is far deeper and wider and higher than any of us can possibly attain to, and that He desires to reconcile His children unto Himself, all that He does will be for the ultimate good, including the judgement and one day every knee will bow before His holiness and every creature will sing praises to Him.

Amen! That's the kind of God I believe in too!

My God and your God is LOVE Ooooooooooo yahhhhhhhh!

[ColleenLovesMischief]

When Jesus preached in Hell, was He giving the souls there a second chance?

Gotta ask where does the bible say He preached in Hell? I brought this to a pastor of a church that was teaching that He went to hell and gave the word and they could not support it biblically.

[Guest Calamity]

I have to go with One Accord on this one. Ever since my salvation experience I have asked repeatedly the same question. Why me Lord. I did nothing to deserve it, He came down from heaven and just put it upon me like a Damascus road experience. I have watched the world go by, high and low and questions continued to pile up. I read about all the places and languages that don't even have a Bible in their tongue and think wow how many have perished because no one got to them. Something smells really bad about all of this. If what everyone is saying is true then as good christians sell your home and get on the road because alot of people are going to hell because of our self-centeredness. While we sit back and get real cozy in our realization of our own salvation the majority of the world is literally going to hell and it lasts forever.

Or God made a oath. Isaiah 45:22-23 Look to Me and be saved, ALL ends of the earth! For I am God and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that unto Me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR (ALLEGIANCE).

Philippians 2:10-11 That in the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in the heaven and on the earth and UNDER THE EARTH. And every tongue confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God.

Romans 5:18 Well then, as one man's trespass to condemnation for ALL men, so one Man's act of righteousness to acquittal and right standing with God and life for ALL men.

So if all men were made sinners by one mans actions then all were brought to salvation by the free will gift (God's grace) by one man's actions. And what does under the earth mean? And isn't death and hell going to be thrown into the lake of fire? Why is it everyone takes the first part of that literally and not the second part?

As far as Abraham's bosom being a parable or real go and read it. If it is real and it proves hell of eternal pain and suffering than by that scripture where the rich man calls out to Abraham and he answers it would lead us to believe that we are going to be able to see and speak with our beloved family and friends that don't quite measure up. Someone also pointed out that the rich man never repented, well neither did the poor guy suffering out by the gate.

I implore you guys read every last word, and would someone respond to the Greek interpretations because they are well worth looking at since Paul was writing in Greek. Seek Gods wisdom and ask the hard questions. Why me Lord, and why not the people all over the globe that never even heard of Christ. You may be suprised what He tells you. One last question I would like answered. If those of us plucked out of the ages and there is a remnant plucked out of each age by Christ himself to be given this gift. And we are going to reign with Christ as Son's of God. Who are we reigning over? Oh by the way if Christ did go to hell and preach to the inhabitants thereof, and they being born before Christ's time, or even after but never heard a word about him, would that be considered a second chance or a first.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

Teri: "I have to go with One Accord on this one. Ever since my salvation experience I have asked repeatedly the same question. Why me Lord. I did nothing to deserve it, He came down from heaven and just put it upon me like a Damascus road experience. I have watched the world go by, high and low and questions continued to pile up. I read about all the places and languages that don't even have a Bible in their tongue and think wow how many have perished because no one got to them. Something smells really bad about all of this...."

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Teri, I don't understand how you can say that "something smells bad", about God's plan of redemption for mankind. Of course you don't deserve it, and neither do I, nor anyone else. Do you have a better plan in mind than God did? Are you able to come up with something more? Are you, or any of us, qualified to question God? There are things that we could find to question, if we were to choose to, that would drive us insane - for instance, where did God come from? Where was He before the beginning? There is no point to this type of thing, however.

2 Timothy 2

2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

AV - vain babblings 2; 2

1) empty discussion, discussion of vain and useless matters

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

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Teri: "Or God made a oath. Isaiah 45:22-23 Look to Me and be saved, ALL ends of the earth! For I am God and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that unto Me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR (ALLEGIANCE)."

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Are you saying that everyone will be saved, regardless? Because it says, Look unto me, and be ye saved? There are those who will NOT look unto God, but will reject his offer of Salvation, Teri. Not all will repent, believe, and accept that Gift, even though the offer is for all. Only those who believe will receive it.

Isaiah 45

45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

AV - turn 53, look 42, prepare 6, regard 4, respect 4, look back 4,

turn away 2, turn back 2, misc 16; 135

1) to turn

Philippians 2

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yes - every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess. That doesn't mean that ALL will be saved. But, that all will acknowledge and admit, that Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Even the devils know that - do you think demons will be in Heaven also, because they know, and admit who He is?

James 2:19

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Mark 1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.

Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking [them] suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

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Teri: "So if all men were made sinners by one mans actions then all were brought to salvation by the free will gift (God's grace) by one man's actions. .... Why is it everyone takes the first part of that literally and not the second part?"

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Romans 5

5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

AV - receive 133, take 106, have 3, catch 3, not tr 1, misc 17; 263

5:18 Therefore * as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so * by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Yes, the free gift came to all men. Not all will accept it, though, but it is offered to all.

John 3

3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

-----------------------------------------

Teri: "As far as Abraham's bosom being a parable or real go and read it. If it is real and it proves hell of eternal pain and suffering than by that scripture where the rich man calls out to Abraham and he answers it would lead us to believe that we are going to be able to see and speak with our beloved family and friends that don't quite measure up. Someone also pointed out that the rich man never repented, well neither did the poor guy suffering out by the gate."

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Does the Bible say that Lazarus never repented? I say, if he was in Abraham's Bosom after he died, that he was a believer, obviously, and the rich man was in torment, so he obviously was not a believer. This was before Christ was crucified, resurrected and ascended. Some believe that Abraham's Bosom was where the Saints went before that, and that Jesus went there to get them, so they could be in Heaven with Him, after his crucifixation, and resurrection.

The Bible also says there will be no more tears.

Rev. 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

AV - pain 3; 3

1) great trouble, intense desire

2) pain

How could this be true, if we were mourning the loss of loved ones who were not in Heaven? If we were "watching" them suffer while we were with Jesus, and able to speak with them and hear all about their terrible torment?

As for a second chance after death - if we died, met the Savior, then we would KNOW He was who the Bible says He is. We'd know for sure. Where would faith come into that? Why would we need faith, if we had a second chance and KNEW God was real, and that salvation was only through His Son? And, KNEW that Jesus was the Christ. What about faith?

Eph.2

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Heb.11

[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If, after we die, and have seen and known, then how could we have faith? The description of it, is right there above in Hebrews. And, in Ephesians: "For by grace are ye saved through faith..."

[Ash]

Great post Calamity.

[Guest Teri]

Calamity, good post. One problem with it. I live in the US where information about Christ at this point in time travels freely about. Now the US was founded several hundreds of years after Christ and there was no one here to tell the indiginous peoples of Christ. So according to the way everyone is reading scripture all those perhaps millions of peoples that walked on this dirt before the settlers came and told them about Jesus they through their ignorance are going to burn in everlasting torment at the hands of God.

And Calamity I said nothing about God's redemptive plan smelling, I said the way everyone is interpretting it smells. Alot is being left out of the interpretation. Take this one piece of scripture. God wills that all men should be saved. God wills it, well if God wills it then He has a plan to bring it about and I have complete and utter faith in Him that makes the decisions and wills as He pleases. Read about Gods elect, His chosen which would be us out of this age. I am asserting that we did not make a choice for God, but God for us and He knew who He would choose out of each generation according to His great plan from the foundations of the world so that no man can boast. There is something that each and everyone of us on this planet is doing at the moment, and all the races and peoples before us were doing at the time they were doing it that fit perfectly into Gods great plan. How many Egyptians were killed in the red sea? How many of them were offered salvation through God. How many of them were born Egyptians with no knowledge of anything but what they were? Pharoh who was created specifically for the purpose he served to glorify God in that situation had no choice but to be what he was. So now that man and all his soldiers are going to be tormented by my loving God for Gazillions of years simply because they were born where they were born and served Gods purposes in it?

And answer how are all the Jews going to be saved? God has chosen out of each generation a remnant that believe in Christ and they exist. But He God has blinded the majority and now that majority which God fully discloses to us He has made unable to hear the Gospel of Christ are going to burn an everlasting torment never to cease because of a choice they never got to make.

Romans 8:20-21 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, WHO HAVE BEEN CALLED according to HIS PURPOSE. For those God FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORMED TO THE LIKENESS OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. AND THOSE HE PREDESTINED, HE ALSO CALLED; THOSE HE CALLED, He also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Now I understand why me, because God forordained it, and I had a Damascus road experience not because I am all that or I was willing, because I wasn't. I had it because God created me very specifically to be a big mouth in His plan. Now I could take it upon myself to say oh I'm such a good soldier of God because I live my faith outloud and all who know me know what I believe or I can say God made me to be the way I am and take not one iota of credit for it. Even in the womb Jacob God loved and Esau He hated, we are talking about a baby here. God set the whole thing in motion and Esau had no choice in becoming what he was to become.

As Gods elected saints in this age, as His chosen remnant among our brethen, as those called by the Holy Spirit we should be praying that all men everywhere no matter there fleshly state be saved. Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. Now wouldn't that show all of creation the boundless mercy, love and grace of God. It would certainly Glorify our Father much more than tormenting people whom He created to be exactly what they are for a Gazillion times a Gazillion years. God is just and it would not be just to do this to even unborn children who never heard of the words of Christ. There is only one name under Heaven, in the World or under the world which people can be saved. Without that name even the unborn are doomed. Think about what you are saying about a Loving, merciful God.

By the way Abraham is in heaven, Abraham's bosom is a place of honor in heaven with Abraham. It is used as an example because in those days a person who was favored by the host of a dinner sat next to the host and they lounged at the table rather than sat, so the person in the place of honor next to the host would almost be laying against the host's bosom. So yes it's a literal place called heaven. By faith Abraham was saved and is in heaven with Christ and all the hosts and is feasting as we speak upon the words of Him who adores us. Let me throw this out there, the rich man is the Jewish Pharisee's and Lazarus is the surrounding Gentile nations at the gates begging for scraps off the tables of the ones who knew God. Much like the woman who was not a Jew told Christ she would be happy with the scraps that fell from the masters table.

In Yeshua's love

Teri

[Guest Calamity]

Teri:

Calamity, good post. One problem with it. I live in the US where information about Christ at this point in time travels freely about. Now the US was founded several hundreds of years after Christ and there was no one here to tell the indiginous peoples of Christ. So according to the way everyone is reading scripture all those perhaps millions of peoples that walked on this dirt before the settlers came and told them about Jesus they through their ignorance are going to burn in everlasting torment at the hands of God.

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Teri, I don't know what all to tell you. I know what it says here in Romans:

Romans 1

[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

And some of that last part sounds a little like nature worship, and totem poles, and all various sorts of worship to false gods. They would not 'worship' anything, if it was not evident to them, in the first place, that there was 'something' or someone to worship, right?

Rev. 11

[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

And, even until the very end, God has witnesses testifying, giving people a chance to accept Him, right up until the very end. I'd say that's very merciful and longsuffering on His part.

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Teri: And Calamity I said nothing about God's redemptive plan smelling, I said the way everyone is interpretting it smells. Alot is being left out of the interpretation. Take this one piece of scripture. God wills that all men should be saved. God wills it, well if God wills it then He has a plan to bring it about and I have complete and utter faith in Him that makes the decisions and wills as He pleases.

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Yes, God has a plan. Read John 3:16. All who believe. Of course it's His will that all are saved - because He loves us. But if it's going to work out that everyone is saved - regardless, then what is the point of Jesus going to the cross. Why do that? If all were going to heaven, anyway, then Jesus doing that was not necessary at all. Why would God do something like that for no reason? If all are going to be saved, then we're nothing more than puppets and robots, and everything that's happened, and has been recorded in the Bible, is just a big waste of time. Why didn't God just put us with Him, in Heaven in the first place, like the angels? Maybe because of our free will? Our free will to choose to accept Christ as our Savior or to reject Him? Could that be it? Of course God knows from before our beginning who will, and who will not, but that doesn't take away from our free will to choose to accept Him or reject Him - not one bit.

Josh.24

[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

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Teri: Read about Gods elect, His chosen which would be us out of this age. I am asserting that we did not make a choice for God, but God for us and He knew who He would choose out of each generation according to His great plan from the foundations of the world so that no man can boast.

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All who are saved, are His elect. And, it's our works that we are not to boast about, as to them being the cause of our salvation:

Eph. 2

[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The work has been done - it's there for all to have, if they believe, repent and accept it. A gift. Not forced, or coherced onto someone, but if they believe, it's their's.

Acts.10

[43] To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

John.3

[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John.11

[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John.12

[46] I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

1John.5

[1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

If they do not believe, then that's another story.

2 Thes. 1

[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thes. 2

[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Prov. 1

[22] How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

[23] Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

[24] Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

[25] But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

[27] When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

[28] Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

[29] For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

[30] They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

[31] Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

[33] But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

Isa.66

[4] I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

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Teri: There is something that each and everyone of us on this planet is doing at the moment, and all the races and peoples before us were doing at the time they were doing it that fit perfectly into Gods great plan. How many Egyptians were killed in the red sea? How many of them were offered salvation through God. How many of them were born Egyptians with no knowledge of anything but what they were?

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Every Egyptian who saw what God did, during that time, should have seen enough to know that He was the True God. If you were an unbeliever, and saw all the miracles and wonders that were performed during the time God was working through Moses, would you have believed? Would you have thought, "Hmm, maybe there is something to this God after all, maybe He is real and powerful."

I Sam. 6

[6] Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharoah hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?

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Teri: Pharoh who was created specifically for the purpose he served to glorify God in that situation had no choice but to be what he was.

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It does say that God hardened the heart of Pharoah. But in the verse above it says that the Egyptians and Pharoah hardened their hearts. God knew, before he did that, what Pharoah's reaction would be. That's part of how His foreknowledge works... also, with who and who will not, be saved.

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Teri: So now that man and all his soldiers are going to be tormented by my loving God for Gazillions of years simply because they were born where they were born and served Gods purposes in it?

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No. The ones who end up in torment, are going there for rejecting the Savior, for unbelief. Nothing more, nothing less.

2 Thes. 1

[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thes. 2

[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Teri: And answer how are all the Jews going to be saved? God has chosen out of each generation a remnant that believe in Christ and they exist. But He God has blinded the majority and now that majority which God fully discloses to us He has made unable to hear the Gospel of Christ are going to burn an everlasting torment never to cease because of a choice they never got to make.

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Romans 11

[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

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Teri: Now I understand why me, because God forordained it, and I had a Damascus road experience not because I am all that or I was willing, because I wasn't. I had it because God created me very specifically to be a big mouth in His plan. Now I could take it upon myself to say oh I'm such a good soldier of God because I live my faith outloud and all who know me know what I believe or I can say God made me to be the way I am and take not one iota of credit for it.

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I am not questioning your experience, but it seems that if you had one like Paul's, that you would at least believe what John 3:16 says, about salvation.

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Teri: Even in the womb Jacob God loved and Esau He hated, we are talking about a baby here. God set the whole thing in motion and Esau had no choice in becoming what he was to become.

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Here, as far as I know, this again, is evidence of God's foreknowledge. He foreknew Esau and all about him, while he was still in the womb. He did not have to wait for Esau to be born, and sell his birthright, to know that is what was going to happen. Esau made that choice, himself, like we are given the opportunity to choose Christ, or reject Him.

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Teri: As Gods elected saints in this age, as His chosen remnant among our brethen, as those called by the Holy Spirit we should be praying that all men everywhere no matter there fleshly state be saved.

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You said above, in another paragraph:

" God wills that all men should be saved. God wills it, well if God wills it then He has a plan to bring it about and I have complete and utter faith in Him that makes the decisions and wills as He pleases."

Why should we have to pray for that to happen then, if all are to be saved? Why should we spread the Gospel? Why should we send out missionaries? If God wills it, then it will happen, regardless of if the person chooses to accept Christ or not - right? Is that what you said, or am I misunderstanding you?

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Teri: Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. Now wouldn't that show all of creation the boundless mercy, love and grace of God. It would certainly Glorify our Father much more than tormenting people whom He created to be exactly what they are for a Gazillion times a Gazillion years. God is just and it would not be just to do this to even unborn children who never heard of the words of Christ.

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God does have mercy on us, and love for us, even before we belonged to Him:

Romans 5

[6] For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

[7] For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

You are correct - God is Just, and Righteous. Are you referring to Esau or to aborted babies, here? I do not believe God sends unborn babies, or little children, who are too young to know the Truth and to know right from wrong, to hell. When they are old enough, and have learned enough to know, then they must choose, either to believe or not to believe, repent, and accept Christ as their Savior.

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Teri: There is only one name under Heaven, in the World or under the world which people can be saved.

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Correct - one Name.

Acts 4

[10] Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

[11] This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

[12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

And those that believe - are saved.

Acts 4

[4] Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

[32] And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

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Teri: Without that name even the unborn are doomed. Think about what you are saying about a Loving, merciful God.

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Teri, think about what you are saying, please. This is my last long post on this subject. Maybe my last one period. I'm very concerned about what you and OneAccord are saying, and will remember you in my prayers.