Salvation "IF YOU"

[endure4salvation]

Endure

So why did you post recently that those who steal, murder, commit idolatry and other such things will lose their salvation, but now you say that sins don't really cause one to lose salvation? You tried to cite verses from Galatians, and other NT passages to prove that certain sins will cause one to forfeit salvation. Now, you are saying that it is abandonment of faith.

Actually faith does NOT justify us, it is the grace of God that justifies us. Faith is instrument through which we recieve that grace. If faith justifies us, you would have a point. Since faith does not justify us, weakness of faith does not unjustify us.

Do you define abandonment of the faith as a "sin?"

Both of these verses show that it is God who is doing the justifying, in repsonse to faith. Faith is the instrument through which justification is recieved.

If the Bible teaches that God's grace and our faith is a relationship that is required for a covenant, then both sides are needed.

Like with any contract, if one of the parties breaks the conditions of the agreement, it is null and void.

Without God's grace, there is no possibility of salvation.

Without our faith, God's grace cannot be received.

The abandonment of faith causes the nullification of the covenant.

Sin can be described as the anti-faith. While I do often claim that sin is what causes the loss of salvation, it is not really the case. Jesus came to set us free FROM our sins. And when we trust in Him, like John 3:16 says, we are trusting Him to allow us to be set free FROM sin. If we no longer trust Him, we will be in our own power, and none of us have the ability to abstain from sin without the grace of God.

Does this help any?

[BlindSeeker]

Ro 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Both of these verses show that it is God who is doing the justifying, in repsonse to faith. Faith is the instrument through which justification is recieved.

Yes . . . God justifies . . . because of faith. If there was no God, there would be no need for justification or faith. If there is no faith, then there can be no justification.

We are justified by God by our faith. It really is quite simple . . .

[CWJ]

Ok then, we are justified by God through faith.

When we have proper faith to receive Grace....does anyone disagree that a spiritual re-birth occurs?

And does anyone disagree that it is the power of God that does this?

Does anyone disagree that God said no man would pluck the saint from His hand?

Does anyone disagree that God said His sheep would never perish (John 10:28)?

So .....would you disagree that if you can turn away from faith that you would also have to have power to undo what God has done?

[CWJ]

Endure

So why did you post recently that those who steal, murder, commit idolatry and other such things will lose their salvation, but now you say that sins don't really cause one to lose salvation?  You tried to cite verses from Galatians, and other NT passages to prove that certain sins will cause one to forfeit salvation.  Now, you are saying that it is abandonment of faith. 

Actually faith does NOT justify us, it  is the grace of God that justifies us.  Faith is instrument through which we recieve that grace.  If faith justifies us, you would have a point.  Since faith does not justify us, weakness of faith does not unjustify us.

Do you define abandonment of the faith as a "sin?"

Both of these verses show that it is God who is doing the justifying, in repsonse to faith. Faith is the instrument through which justification is recieved.

If the Bible teaches that God's grace and our faith is a relationship that is required for a covenant, then both sides are needed.

Like with any contract, if one of the parties breaks the conditions of the agreement, it is null and void.

Without God's grace, there is no possibility of salvation.

Without our faith, God's grace cannot be received.

The abandonment of faith causes the nullification of the covenant.

Sin can be described as the anti-faith. While I do often claim that sin is what causes the loss of salvation, it is not really the case. Jesus came to set us free FROM our sins. And when we trust in Him, like John 3:16 says, we are trusting Him to allow us to be set free FROM sin. If we no longer trust Him, we will be in our own power, and none of us have the ability to abstain from sin without the grace of God.

Does this help any?

You contradict yourself too obviously to help.

You can give no defining line of salvation loss.

You can give no scripture of a saint being un-re-born.

TRULY SAVED is one that will show the fruit (ie.)....IF you endure...If you continue...IF you obey His commands...IF IF IF ...you show fruit....

YOU ARE TRULY SAVED!

IF is not a condition...for this would contradict the simple and plain teachings that a saint will never perish.

Blessings, Carl

[BlindSeeker]

Help me out here Brother Carl . . . where's the contradiction?

[Guest shiloh357]

Blindseeker,

Yes . . . God justifies . . . because of faith. If there was no God, there would be no need for justification or faith. If there is no faith, then there can be no justification.

We are justified by God by our faith. It really is quite simple . . .

My point is that others seem to think that faith is the justifying element in salvation. It is not. Grace is the justifying element. That has been my point to Endure4. It is God who justifies by His grace. We recieve that by faith. It is not the abandonment of faith that would unjustify us.

The issue is whether or not GOD abandons us. If God abandons us, then we would lose our justification. If the Grace of God is withdrawn from us, then one could make that argument. The truth is that God doesn't abandon us. What use would grace be if it was only given to us when we lived correctly?

[Guest shiloh357]

If the Bible teaches that God's grace and our faith is a relationship that is required for a covenant, then both sides are needed.

Like with any contract, if one of the parties breaks the conditions of the agreement, it is null and void.

Without God's grace, there is no possibility of salvation.

Without our faith, God's grace cannot be received.

The abandonment of faith causes the nullification of the covenant.

This is wrong because YOU are not in covenant with God. You are not good enough to be in covenant with God. The New Covenant is not between God the Father and man, it is between Godthe Father and Jesus according to Galatians 3. You are the recipent of the blessings of that covenant, but you are unable to keep a covenant with God. The ONLY One who can keep a covenant with God is Jesus. That is why it is by grace, and not by anything you have done. It is by what Christ has done, and the Father's covenant partner, that we are saved. You cannot nullify the covenant made by the Father and Jesus. Only THEY can nullify it, and they are going to do that.

[WayneB]

TRULY SAVED is one that will show the fruit (ie.)....IF you endure...If you continue...IF you obey His commands...IF IF IF ...you show fruit....

Jeez, and I thought all I had to do was confess and believe. Paul must have misspoke in his letter to the Romans. Sorry Carl, just couldn't help tossing my 2 cents in on this thread. Please know that I do love you brother and maybe someday we can meet and discuss it over a cup of coffee.

God Bless,

Wayne

[WayneB]

How much walking away is crossing the line?  Just what point is it that you know you have "lost" salvation?

The Bible doesn't say, so I don't know.

Good answer...and the right one. God knows the heart of man and only He knows the answer to this question. I had a tree in my yard die a few years ago and took six months before I was sure it was dead. One hint was that it was bare well into the Spring. Ok, dumb example but the point is we don't know so don't judge another man's salvation even if his fruit is not so good. Instead, focus on his behavior with love and out of a desire to restore him gently. I do not know how to distinguish those that are just saved and those that are truely saved.

God Bless,

Wayne

[Jedi4Yahweh]

How much walking away is crossing the line?