Age of accountibility

[Ovedya]

Angels, I'm confused as to what your intent was when you posted this question? You asked it, and even though there was a bunch of feel good ("oh, absolutely, positively!God would NEVER allow a baby to go to hell!") responses, some name calling that some Christians are "idiots" and "morons"and only one response offering any kind of proof (Adstar's), you came back and agreed with the feel goods, based on no proof or information. By your last post, it seems that your mind was made up long ago that babies/infants never go to hell, so, I ask - why exactly did you ask the question? I'm curious.

Okay here is another thought for us. If a child lets say hypothetically is responsible at age 12, what about the children raised by Atheist parents, or by parents who belive in a god but just don't practice any of the biblical morals etc? How can they be accountable if they aren't allowed to be around the Word? Jaime

Jaime, no one as answered your question because they can't. Because your question is excellent, it shows how salvation is 100% God and nothing to do with man, and those who make up feel good doctrines about babies and hell can not relate to that. According to them, man is always involved and has a say, man always knows, if not just as good as God, almost as good . And man's idea of "fair" is the right way. It's very sad to see the Scriptures distorted so badly, made to fit into our minds, instead of taking on the mind of God.

The only other comment I have is that I am cracking up at this "age of 12" thing. Obviously those who think that have never had a child, and have never seen a two year old look it's mother straight in the eye and defy her request. Oh, I forgot - that isn't really "sin" because the baby doesn't know any better, lol.

Tell us how you really feel, WIP

Any comments on the article I posted?

[tsth]

Jaime, no one as answered your question because they can't.

That's not true WIP. I did.......and I can. You might go back and take a look.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[angels4u]

WIP.

I never intent to agree with somebody's feelings, feelings are decieving. Sorry for the confusion.

Also my question was not if babies go to heaven if they die, but I do absolutely believe they will. But I raised the question about accountibility.

Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."" (John 9:41)

"And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad --they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it." (Deuteronomy 1:39)

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste." (Isaiah 7:14-16)

I believe Jesus is saying here that they don't know yet what sin is, young children are too young to understand. Therefore they will not be held accountible.

.

Hope this answers your question?? Angels

[His son]

Quote:

Okay here is another thought for us. If a child lets say hypothetically is responsible at age 12, what about the children raised by Atheist parents, or by parents who belive in a god but just don't practice any of the biblical morals etc? How can they be accountable if they aren't allowed to be around the Word? Jaime

Lev 4:2

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

(KJV)

Lev 4:13

13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;

(KJV)

Lev 4:22

22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;

(KJV)

Lev 4:27

27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

(KJV)

Lev 5:15-16

15 If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:

16 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.

(KJV)

Num 15:24

24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.

(KJV)

Acts 3:17

17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

(KJV)

Acts 17:30-31

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;

(KJV)

1 Pet 1:14-16

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

(KJV)

These Scrptures cover pretty well the issue of ignorance of sin and God's righteous ways. But there are Those Scriptures that tell us that every knee will bow, and every tounge shall comfess that Jesus Christ is Lord. So before the final judgment every creature shall know.

Quote:

Jaime, no one as answered your question because they can't. Because your question is excellent, it shows how salvation is 100% God and nothing to do with man, and those who make up feel good doctrines about babies and hell can not relate to that. According to them, man is always involved and has a say, man always knows, if not just as good as God, almost as good . And man's idea of "fair" is the right way. It's very sad to see the Scriptures distorted so badly, made to fit into our minds, instead of taking on the mind of God.

This is all the words of a man and can not be supported by the total of Bible Doctrine relating to salvation and it's process from initial belief to entrance into The Kingdom. This process the time of, and culmination of are dependent on God's freewill choice to give man the freewill to choose who He will choose to serve. Even as He Stated in HIS SCRIPTURES:

Josh 24:15

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

(KJV)

So don't be decevied by satans deception that God didn't mean that you will die if you disobey.

[tsth]

I guess I just consider it an irrelevant question. To me, it's like saying that God couldn't preserve His Word either. I mean to say that God would desire for every soul to be saved, and then withhold the Word from a child that would not have access to it at home, is just not in sync with the Lord God. I believe that God is able to make His Word available to ALL, even children who are parented by atheists. I wasn't exposed to the Word in my home growing up, but that didn't mean that I was NEVER exposed to it. There were too many other avenues by which children can be exposed. A friend's family, a neighborhood church, a neighbor, a relative, etc., the list could go on and on, and on. To me, to presume that God couldn't get His word to that child, is just not fathomable. IMHO.

:il:

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Work in Progress]

Sorry, Suzanne, didn't mean to invalidate your response. I saw it, but didn't think of it as a "meat" answer to her question, but more an answer of how you, personally, are trying to reach children who don't otherwise hear. I think her question was "what about the kids who spend their whole lives never hearing? How can they be accountable?". That question hasn't been answered. Her question held the implication that it's not "fair" that such a life would be held accountable. But of course, we know from Scripture that every single human being is accountable and no one gets a free ride. :-)

LOL, G-Man, I never mince words. I'll work on that.

What do I think of your article?? Well -

The problem with this theory(so called "age of accountability") is that it is based upon the logical processes of fallen human thought, and is a perverse twisting of God's law for the sake of what seems right in our own eyes.

AMEN, AMEN and AMEN again!!! And the Bible specifically warns us about what we think is right in our own eyes.

There is nothing in God's law that says man must fully understand sin, before it is actually sin. On the contrary, this doctrine is both un-biblical and self serving, for it presupposes unrighteously that sin must first be recognized as sin before it is actually accountable. Nothing in scripture supports such a thesis.

Amen again. Totally true. What's the human nature of us all? To pass off our personal responsibility for what we do wrong. All the way back to Adam, who passed the blame onto Eve - "SHE made me do it!!!". Of course we want to make up some theology that we are innocent if we "don't really know" we are sinning, that makes our wickedness so much easier to live with, doesn't it? People will go on making up feel good doctrines until they truly understand the meanings of sin and grace.

The plain truth is, this is simply a natural humanistic response in sentimentality related to man thinking more of himself than is justified. i.e., we naturally all want to think nice things about children. But man does not govern how we are to understand God's Word, the Word itself should.

This guy speaks wonderful, freeing truth with excellent cross references to Scriptures that support the fact that all human life sins, not just people past a certain age or "accountablility time". And we know that even one sin separates us from God unto eternal death. I'm glad you posted this excellent article. Does that answer your question about how I feel about it?

Here are some questions for you, GMan -

You said -

So we may reason within ourselves that a righteous and holy God could not possibly hold sin against a child. It is impossible to imagine a holy and loving father punishing thousands of children for something they have no knowledge or understanding of. Those of us especially that have lost children cannot fathom such an unrighteous and cruel act.

Does God "hold" sin "against" anyone? Is that the kind of God we worship? A vengeful God? Is that what causes a person to spend eternity in Hell? That God held something against them? As in 'grudge'?

My second question is - you say "it is impossible to imagine a holy and loving father punishing thousands of children for something they have no knowledge or understanding of."

Who is determining that 'they have no knowledge and understanding' of what they do? Please provide Scripture reference if you have time. Also, you say that, if those children are held accountable for their actions, that is "an unrighteous and cruel act.". Again, who determines that that is "unrighteous and cruel"? By who's standards is it "unrighteous and cruel"?

Thanks. Oh, and, btw, I know parents who have lost a child and do not know where their child is today, but do not think God 'unrighteous and cruel' either way. They know He is incapable of such, and trust His word on the matter, and know that His way is the only right way - regardless of what their human nature feels is 'fair'.

Angels, thank you for the answer. I totally agree with you 1000% that we should not go on 'feelings' because they are deceiving. So, what, other than feelings, is your proof that every baby that dies automatically is saved and goes to Heaven? There is no Scripture to that effect, and you said it's not feelings, so I am confused as to what you can cling to for that belief then?

You said to God-Man:

God-man: I disagree very much too with the link you gave us.

Do you really believe that??

Would you say what it is that you disagree with? We could start with his first point -

The problem with this theory is that it is based upon the logical processes of fallen human thought, and is a perverse twisting of God's law for the sake of what seems right in our own eyes. There is nothing in God's law that says man must fully understand sin, before it is actually sin.

'There is nothing in God's Scriptures that says man must fully understand sin, before it is sin' - what about that do you disagree with?

His next point is the Scriptures that are often used to support this doctrine of 'age of accountability' and how they have nothing to do with the sin of children, but rather their meekness and humblesness and willing to accept without questions and doubts, and that adults should come to Christ with these great child-like qualities. Nothing at all about children sinning and their need for a Savior, or any "guarantee" in those verses that children automatically go to Heaven - what about this point to you not agree with?

Then he offers a verse from Scripture to disprove this concept of 'age of accountability' -

Proverbs 20:11

"Even a Child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right."

The verse shows that a child can have pure and right work - or other work and that he/she is known by these works. What about this point do you disagree with?

It's very politically correct to be a child lover. "I'm a nice person, but you won't be able to hold me back if someone harms a little child!" is often heard and hailed as noble and right. Our instincts to protect little children are a part of us and very emotional. I'm a mother of four and I can totally relate to it. But that can't be our guide in what the Scriptures say, and it can't allow us to twist the Scriptures to fit our emotions. Where the Scripture is silent, so should we be, less we start making it "right in our own eyes".

If it is so "cruel" and hideous that a child would not be one of God's and spend eternity separated from Him, why isn't it just as cruel and hideous that a child be brutally raped and then murdered? God won't allow one, because he's not "cruel", but he will allow the other?? Children suffer in very, very bad ways everyday in our world. They starve to death, they are neglected to death, they are beaten to death and they are victims of criminals. My friend did mission work in Haiti. His first chore every morning, along with the other Missionaries, was to walk the village and gather and bury the infants and babies who died during the night from disease and starvation. Why isn't anyone inserting their ideas of what is "fair" into that? Where is this "fair" and uncruel God there? No answers of "but that's just temporary suffering because of sin in the world" stuff - Biblical answers to why one is 'cruel' and one is not. With God's definitions of words, not human ones. Not being smart - serious question.

[Work in Progress]

Sorry, Suzanne, I have no idea how that partial post got posted! LOL

I mean to say that God would desire for every soul to be saved, and then withhold the Word from a child that would not have access to it at home, is just not in sync with the Lord God

Yes, but does God desire for every soul to be saved? If so, then the fact that they aren't - does that mean then that God is a failure and His plan for His people not perfect?

I believe that God is able to make His Word available to ALL, even children who are parented by atheists.

Amen! Me too. The Scripture says that, just by looking around us at all He created is enough for us to know Him. Amen! God's calling can not be denied - if He calls you, your history and lack of knowledge are not so big that He can't overcome them. I serve a more powerful God than that.

To me, to presume that God couldn't get His word to that child, is just not fathomable.

Amen! We serve an awesome God with no limits, least of all by His own creation! However, I don't think that is the point of this post. I thought the point was that there is some sort of "age of accountability" and that you either don't sin, or you don't have to answer for your son before that age -being supported in the Holy Scriptures. So far, I haven't seen anything supporting that claim, other than "God wouldn't be that cruel".

[tsth]

Yes, but does God desire for every soul to be saved? If so, then the fact that they aren't - does that mean then that God is a failure and His plan for His people not perfect?

No, it means that God did not create a being who robotically loves Him, with no free will to choose the right, or the wrong.

Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Jos. 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Prov. 1:29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the Lord,

Isaiah 7:15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.

Isa 7:16

For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

Isaiah 56:4 For thus says the Lord: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,

He made salvation available to ALL mankind. But, He did not create mankind to be free from choice. That was made available to mankind as well. We are offered the Bread of Life, but that does not mean we are forced "TO EAT OF IT".

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

I don't think that is the point of this post. I thought the point was that there is some sort of "age of accountability" and that you either don't sin, or you don't have to answer for your son before that age -being supported in the Holy Scriptures.

Apparently there is an age of knowing the difference.

It is referred to in Scripture in my above post in Isaiah 7:15-16. That seems to be implying there is a point of accountability.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Work in Progress]

Hi Suzanne. The child spoken about in that passage is Jesus, not a general reference to children. Even so, I'm sure a child doesn't realize the concept of sin at say, 8 months old, but that does not erase the child's depraved nature and need for a Saviour. It still doesn't answer the claim that no one is accountable or has a sin nature before they know that they are in sin. If that were the case, we would have to conclude that anyone who doesn't know they are sinning is guiltless and therefore in no need of repentance and automatically saved. That would pretty much include everyone who hasn't come to the saving knowledge of Jesus. And we know from Scripture that that is not true. Regardless, I would hesitate to base any theology on one verse in Scripture.

I enjoyed your "choose" Scriptures, however, we would probably disagree as to why a person chooses. From what I see in Scripture, they choose God's way only because God chose to open their eyes, not through anything of their own will.